Angels of Punishment – Good or Bad?

Further to Ama’s comment on another thread:

“I don’t believe Jesus’ God had an angel of wrath. It’s just totally out of character.”

I have decided to share part of a conversation I had with a friend, to see what you guys all make of it.

First of all, this is not about the Wrath Of God (Rogziel) angel, but another angel of punishment, Kushiel, (Rigid One of God).

Brief background:

My friend has recently experienced a couple of very odd encounters with people he has never met before. By odd, I mean they have told him things that only he knows (not even his wife knows some of the stuff being told) or things that only he and I know about, that involve things of a spiritual matter. In all cases, the messages being delivered are negative in nature and make bold statements as to the origins of the messenger working through the stranger. (In other words, the strangers sound like they are in some sort of possessed state, but act rationally in every other respect)

It all came to a head with his latest encounter involving a total stranger (the wife of a new client of his). Basically, she kept referring to “we” when she talked; ie “we are” or “we know” or “we have” or “we will” etc. (reminded me of the Exorcist, as she relayed the messages to him … thankfully, no pea-soup – hahahaha!).

I won’t relay the majority of the encounter on here, just that she tried to seduce him but then, when he spurned her, she started goading him by attacking me (verbally that is) not psychically. Now, this woman didn’t even know my friend and certainly would NOT know my spiritual persuasion nor me. But, she gave very accurate description of me to him (things that only he and I know) to let it be known exactly whom she was referring to, to my friend. She referred to me as his ‘little friend’ (in a condescending way).

Something she said during the course of this weird experience struck a nerve with my friend. Now, I was always taught; rule number one: never rise to the bait – they love it when you do that! But unfortunately he did just that, which gave the thing inside the woman a great deal of satisfaction and so it continued. As it did so, it spouted off the various names that it has been known by. All of ancient Greek or Latin origin – strangely. The end result, and incensed by its Vermont attack on me (remember, the woman doesn’t know me nor my friend) my friend did the most stupid thing he could think of and threatened to get me to come sort her out. (Yeah! Thanks mate! LOL!) But, and this is the really curious part, rather than laugh off the idle threat, the woman (or whatever was inside her) took a step back in total horror (genuine) and said “Please! No! Don’t return me to Kushiel!”

OK so I’ve left an awful lot of what went on and what was said out of this post (too sensitive for public viewing I’m afraid), but the main point of this story is this; my friend did not know who Kushiel was – hence why he was telling me of his experience in the first place. So I enlightened him.

KUSHIEL

Judeo-Christian folklore, meaning “Rigid One of God”, who punishes individuals in Hell. In Hebrew writings, Kushiel is one of seven angels of punishment along with Hutriel, Lahatiel, Makatiel, Pluriel (also written Pusiel), Rogziel and Shoftiel. As a “presiding angel of Hell,” he is said to punish nations with a whip made of fire, although, along with the other angels of punishment, is reported in Second Book Of Enoch to dwell in the Third Heaven.

So – the question I would like to ask is this;

If the likes of Kushiel and Rogziel (Angels of Punishment) are deemed ‘evil’ or ‘dark’ why are demon’s so scared of them? Demons are only scared of Angels that work FOR and are A PART OF God, do they not??

Would love to know everyone’s thoughts.

Asked by A. J. Ryder

36 Comments
  1. Hi AJ,

    Hmmm.. interesting. I’ve had ‘the dark’ also not want me to be involved with things over the years. I wasn’t sure if I was happy they knew who I was, but it was good to know they were wary of me. LOL

    A fallen angel is still an angel, even when its a demon. We know they are still ‘of God’ but they deny this and keep themselves separate.

    Why is one demon frightened of another demon? Because they too can be punished and injured, if not completely destroyed, depending on what they were created by, by demons greater in standing, or energy, than them. Demons don’t just fear angels, they fear everything. They are always in competition with everything. They are driven by the demon equivalent of the human ego. They have to be stronger, smarter, more devious, than others of their kind .. of course they are going to be fearful of some other demon, of greater intelligence, or power, coming along and usurping what they think they hold (or own).

    I don’t know why anyone would need to believe that God is going to punish someone with hell and firey torment, but we invent the stories, and yes, there are fallen angels and the nasty creatures they create, as well as the nasty entities human beings can create, and they all have to hang out somewhere, when they are not around us trying to cause harm.

    So the demons you named are in the dark, fallen from grace, and not working for the good guys. Be under no illusions, they do not love humanity, nor do they love God. They might have been angels once, but they are no longer, nor can they ever be again – and that has to be a tremendous punishment in itself.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  2. Thanks for your input Ama, very interesting. But your response brings another question to mind:

    If all the ‘dark’ are on one side, whilst the ‘light’ are on the other, why are there dark angels that punish their own?

    Surely, any kingdom divided against itself would be ruined? If the fallen punish the fallen, they are divided against themselves. If they are divided, then how can their kingdom stand on strong foundations?

    Interesting stuff

    AJ
    x

  3. Morning AJ .. its almost bedtime here.

    The dark angels play power games with each other. How best to prove your power than to punish and manipulate those who are subservient to you? Humans do it, demons do it. It’s not usual behaviour.

    As for being ruined, they are an aberration and they know it. They know they will be defeated, but until then .. they will do as much damage, in subtle ways, as they can. They are the tricksters and their satisfaction comes from creating harm that can not be quite ‘pinned down’. They would rather drive a person insane than prove their harassment of that person to others. The person suffers horribly, first from the demon, and then because no one will believe what is happening to them.

    The dark are dark, the Light are light, and humanity stands on the border between the two .. which is why we need guardian angels and guides. They protect our spiritual selves, while we are supposed to protect our physical selves .. but what do we do instead – put ourselves in constant jeopardy through foolish choices, like ouija boards, or trying to contact demons ‘just because’ or to make bargains, or because we think we are more powerful than them. Well, power is an illusion, and is like a balloon .. one quick pin in the right place and the illusion explodes, and the person is left with a demon that is really ‘happy’ to cause them as much trouble as possible .. even unto death. The real struggle comes when we try to remove these entities from people and set the people free. It’s not just an energy release, its also far more complicated. The connection is created through mind, body and spirit .. mind – ego, body – aura and chakra system, and spirit .. what agreements did the person make before coming into the world? Unless we can break all those connections, the person remains harassed, or worse, truly possessed.

    There are no good fallen angels. There are redeemed fallen angels, but they are not angels anymore, nor will they ever be again. If that is a form of punishment, well, its really a matter of attitude. Having done great wrong, there is great right needing to be done to repay their choices. And since humanity is the one who has been most harmed by the fallen, into human shells they go, to live among us and help us grow and learn – the way we should have done before the dark interrupted our journeys.

    Ok, must lose the soapbox LOL

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  4. I like your soapbox, Ama! (big hug) And I love how we view and understand things differently, in some respects. It gives perspective, I feel.

    To me, God is; Everything, One, Whole, Complete. God is perfect balance. As such, I see God as both Ying and Yang, working in harmony with itself in order that we may strive to do the same. That is why I like the OT stories, because it shows all of Gods many ‘characteristics’, not just the nice, gentle side that we’d like God to be.

    To me, God is not just black and white, but also, many shades of grey in-between – just the same as the angels that represent God come with different attributes, even those who’s aspects may be judged by us as ‘evil’. In other words, without having a darker side to its nature, God would neithe be One, nor Whole nor Complete.

    Now, the thing that I have mused over for a long time is this;

    Why would a God create a dark side of its own nature, then give that dark side its own dominion within Heaven (3rd Heaven) to reside over, whilst still maintaining overall control of the dark side that is Its own nature? God does NOTHING without reason, so why create It’s own enemy? Particularly when God can destroy that side of It’s nature in a blink of an eye, at will?

    The conclusion I have drawn is that it would make more sense if it had everything to do with free will – our free will – and not simply divine beings fighting over our souls as trophies to collect -warring enemies, whom have a total and complete divide between the two factions (Heaven v Hell). This being the case, and to keep control over God’s dark side, I see the Punishment Angels as working FOR God to keep His dark side in its place and under control, rather than angels such as Rogziel or Kushiel being fallen themselves and therefore against God.

    The conversation that I had with my friend, specifically the way in which the woman (or whatever was speaking through her) reacted to the threat of Kushiel does appear to reinforce my understanding of how and why it all seems to have been created (on face value, anyway!).

    I have seen Kushiel twice, speaking with the angel on the second meeting. The first time was in ‘hell’. He did not have a whip of flames, as often depicted, but a cat-o-nine-tails and was flogging a former Archbishop Emeritus of Montreal who’d allegedly had a fetish for choir boys and helped himself to Church funds!! (According to the Dark Lord anyway, which I took with a pinch of salt, particularly as there is nothing written publicly of that nature about the individual in question).

    The second was in (what I call) the Great Golden Hall (or 4th Heaven) where I met with the Michael. I requested speaking with Kushiel directly, so he entered the hall and joined us. He was not chaperoned, nor under any form of guard. He simply walked in freely, just him, and joined us.

    This angel looks nothing like the depictions of him that you find all over the internet. He is not muscular, nor young and strong, nor handsome nor foreboding. In fact, Kushiel is small, square-shaped, (fat even) and sweaty from its toils. Kushiel is also, to all intents and purposes a broken angel. He is so very tired, you could say worn out even, and subservient in manner.

    When questioned, it transpired that Kushiel has no will of his own – by that I mean, he does as he is told without thought, question nor motive. This is not the standard demonic characteristic – they like to consider themselves to be ‘individual’ (hense why the “we” when they talk) and act on their individual ego’s, thus always have motive behind everything they do.

    When I asked the question of whom he was answerable to, the answer was, and it was very clear; God.

    So yes, if by ‘broken’ this denotes such an angel as Kushiel to be fallen or on the dark side, then I agree with what you are saying, Ama. But, Kushiel is not like, nor is its energy anything like, any demon I have ever come across before. I felt such pity for the angel, if I’m honest. I just wanted to give it a big hug – actually, I did!

    However, if it is deemed that the fallen are only accountable to Satan for their actions, then there lies the paradox – how can Kushiel truly be one of the fallen?

    Clambering down of my soapbox now …. It’s a bit rickety, so I’ll go steady!

    AJ
    x

  5. Hey AJ,

    I agree that God is everything, and in everything, but then .. I don’t know that God deliberately chose to create evil. I believe that evil came from a choice of free will. One angel was given the gift of ‘ego’ (for want of a better word), and ego tied it into knots and from the knots God began to learn of the opposite of the ‘angels’ true nature .. which is Love. The opposite of love is not hate, IMO, but fear. Ego demands automony, and autonomy means separation from a guiding force .. the guiding force was God. The ‘angel’ went from Light to darkness, perhaps she crossed through shades of grey, AJ, I don’t know, but she did not express grey once she was fallen. She is the opposite of everything she had been before.

    It’s the shades of grey that trap people, and having sympathy for something that ‘appears’ to be harmless. Appearances are deceiving, and so are demons. They can appear to be anything they like, and in any form they like, and we are not always skilled enough to see through their masks. It is best not to trust a demon ever, or you are inviting your own downfall.

    I know the depth of your training and your experiences, and if you want to hug a demon .. that’s up to you :-) but don’t invite it home – you know the mess they can make of it, and people. Kushiel, because it is in hell, is a demon. It is not to be trusted, whether it looks like a ‘sorry for itself’ softie or not. It might not enjoy its job, but its still doing it. By harming others it is proving that it is not redeemed, and the priest, its victim, is under a delusion that he is in hell. Humans don’t go there, they only create hell around themselves, before they die, or afterwards. Quite truthfully, since the dark encourages appalling and destructive behaviour, why would a demon being punishing someone like the bishop .. that’s a contradiction just in itself. The bishop was acting in a way they would be delighted with.

    I am not doubting you saw the vision, I am just wondering what you learned from it, and who sent it? The dark love to play games with our minds, and they never truly let go of any human life, or redeemed fallen angel, if once they had hold of it.

    Wishing you a lovely day .. its freezing here in Oz .. in October???

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  6. Hi Ama

    First off, Kushiel’s energy was filled with love and light, not hate, fear or the dark. I made sure to check that out, as I never trust my eyes or ears! Hense the hug! TBH, if a demon can mimic the energy of an Angel of Light to that degree, then we are all in serious, serious trouble – imho.

    As for the Archbishop and those who were there with him – they chose to be punished. They chose the punishment they felt appropriate to be administered to them for their ‘sin’. The sin of guilt, most probably. But unwarranted, most likely. As you say, “Humans don’t go there, they only create hell around themselves, before they die, or afterwards.” After all, Kushiel does not actually reside in hell. Just creates the illusion for those who chose to be punished in a hell-like place.

    Regretably, the teachings of some religions have an awful lot to answer for, putting the fear of God over the love of God. Some serious reforms are urgently required in religious teaching to stop this illusion – imho.

    But my interest is specifically about the demon in question, and the fear of God it literally experienced as it pleaded not to be sent to Kushiel. But I’ve somehow managed to answer my own question, through this thread – lol! Demon’s hate the light; pure and simple. The demon must think it’s going to get a rigid, inflexable judgment placed upon it, if it is sent to God.

    Funny how it’s mind-set was the same as those like that Archbiship! But then, as you’ve said – its all about the fear.

    Thanks for your input Ama – it’s been a great help. (now off to unravel the rest of the mystery that is; my friends messages.)

    AJ
    x

  7. Hey AJ,

    The most beautiful ‘angel’ I have ever seen is pure poison. Yes, they can pretend to be something they are not, and not everyone has your discernment, so that they can tell an angel from an entity pretending to be one. I’ve had too many people write to me about the ‘angel’ that later turned out to be a nasty piece of work.

    I agree the fear of God is unnecessary, but the dark like to continue to encourage it. They also like to foster illusion and delusion, and they are very good at it.

    I am wondering if that demon was more in fear of Kushiel than God .. its really all in the interpretation, and I wasn’t there when you had the experience, so I cannot know the nuances. Demons fear other demons first before they fear God, because God doesn’t interfere in their actions either. They might even have become complacent, thinking that nothing will happen to them now or later – which is why they seem to be more prevalent in their hauntings of people now .. particularly incubus .. as some men are still obsessed with sex. It is one of the hardest entities to remove.

    It’s interesting that Kusiel did not appear in the form it has been described, seemed just the reverse .. soft and floppy? I wonder why it did that ..

    Good luck with the learning curve, they can often be very strange. :-)

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  8. “Good luck with the learning curve, they can often be very strange. :-)”

    Hi Ama, and thanks. It’s all good fun, deciphering! It’s actually my friend who’s getting the lessons (or, should I say; distractions from them thanks to the pesky dark side!!. I’m supposed to act as … well … not teacher exactly, just someone who might be able to help unravel the puzzle as I’ve got the ‘Been There; Done That’ T-shirt already – lol!

    AMA: It’s interesting that Kusiel did not appear in the form it has been described, seemed just the reverse .. soft and floppy? I wonder why it did that ..

    I have a couple of theories ….

    The first theory

    Kushiel has been glamourised up in both book and film (based on my google searches when given the task of finding out more about it). What I saw in Kushiel wasn’t exactly “soft and floppy”. It looked more like someone who’s spent a life-time of hard labour. It certainly wouldn’t win any angel beauty contests – but then, neither would my guides – lol! That said, I never SEE any of them as beautiful, they simply FEEL beautiful …. or not, depending on which side of the fence they’re from! If I saw a beautiful angel, I would deffo start to worry, I can tell you! Oh! And they hardly ever present themselves with wings either – only those who come-collect demons about to be redeemed show those.

    Sorry, digressed …

    As for Kusiels appearance – it looked exactly the same on both occasions that I’ve seen it, with 2 exceptions:

    The first time; it had a cat-o-nine-tails and a mask covering its face.

    The second time; no weapon and no mask.

    Other than that, it was exactly the same in appearance.

    2nd meeting …

    I was taken through the South Gate (entrance to the 4th Heaven) and inside meet the Michael. The Great Golden Hall (as I call it) has walls, floor, ceilings and pillars so highly polished that you catch your reflexion at every turn. But, what you see is your true self, not what you’d expect to see from the reflection of a mirror. Only ever been there once before, when they wanted to show me who I was. That was ‘fun’!

    So, maybe, that is why Kushiel was so meek and mild mannered? Maybe the combination of where the meeting took place and the connection I have already established with that place from my previous experiences meant there was an element of trust on my part. I certainly felt safe for, no matter what I was about to face, I knew the Michael was with me.

    The second theory

    Maybe I was presented with the concept, rather than the angel itself. A representation to provide an explanation to my question. My guides often use conceptual ‘language’ to communicate, so who’s to say that doesn’t sometimes happen when in a meditative or dream state, instead of astrally travelling there to experience it?

    All I know is, the Michael encouraged me to embrace Rushiel to get feed-back from it in order to answer my question. I got my answer – eventually – took some time to needle it out – lol! But now I have, I can use that to help decipher the next bit.

    AJ
    x

    PS Do you often get demons say to you:

    “Just because you stand in the light, doesn’t make you better than us” or “You think you’re better than us, because you stand in the light!” or any similar statement? Just curious, because my friend gets that as the openning line, every time something decides to ‘give a message’ through someone.

  9. It’d be better if I spelt the name correctly;

    Kushiel; not Rushiel or Kusiel – sigh!

    (Been a long day)

    AJ
    x

  10. Hey AJ,

    I had a long drive today, and was mulling this whole situation over and over. I am going to play devil’s advocate (no pun intended).

    You said: “As for Kusiels appearance – it looked exactly the same on both occasions that I’ve seen it, with 2 exceptions: The first time; it had a cat-o-nine-tails and a mask covering its face. The second time; no weapon and no mask.”

    So you could tell from its energy that it was the same entity? Or did you only take it on face value?

    I would have been more trusting in the scene too, but not the entity in any form. What we see around us comes from within us, from our memories and beliefs, so it can be distorted – and it can also be picked up on and played back to us for tests in discernment, or just simply to deceive.

    My guides talk in concepts too.

    Yes, its possible what you saw is only a representation of what you believe about demons, or something they thought you might be sympathetic towards. As I am explaining in private to one lady at the moment, the sympathy can end you up in deep trouble, because it makes an empathic/energy connection between you and the entity you feel the emotion towards. So the question becomes – after you hugged the demon, did you disconnect your energy from it quite deliberately?

    Demons develop their reputations for a reason. Yes, humans can add to the reputations, but generally the foundation of the belief is based in the experiences of those who have suffered under their torment. We say they are dangerous for a reason. We say they are deceiving because they do. So deciding that one demon might not be nasty .. which is not even in your experience, AJ, really has me worried. You suffered under demonic oppression. You fought your way to freedom. Why the change of mind now? I understand the desire to see good in all things, but demons are not good and never have been. Even redeemed they are not to be trusted until many human lifetimes have passed for them, and they still have the capacity to do great harm. The other thing is, when a demon is redeemed (returned to God) its name/idenity is changed. It’s nature changes. It doesn’t reverse its appearance (harmful to harmless), it doesn’t continue to call itself the demonic name, and it has to become human, not hang around in the spiritual planes ‘punishing’ humans .. which is a truly non-angelic act.

    Right now I worry that the greatest harm will come for, or to, the people reading this site who might use your reasoning to make a connection to the demon that is trying to entice them, and end up deep in trouble. It is better for the general public, who should never have to experience anything you went through, to not be told a few demons might just be ‘ok’. Just to start with, how do the ordinary folk tell which ones are good or not? And the other thought that occurs is how it affects your karma when someone who trusts what you said, for whatever reasons, ends up possessed? Remember the “butterfly in china” understanding of world energy.

    And lastly, I know from experience that the answers to spiritual lessons do not usually need to be so hard dug too deeply for. If something is a struggle its sometimes that we are off on a tangent.

    Your ps. I don’t usually give demons enough time to talk to me, because by turning my attention to them gives them an energy connection to me. The statement you shared sounds like a typical ego-driven comment of a child. I wouldn’t pay it any attention, although it would seem to be a good way for your friend to identify the entity speaking through whomever it is using. And I have to wonder why your friend is accepting messages from a demonic entity at all? Surely s/he realises they are not to be trusted? Or is he oppressed, or heading that way?

    Wishing you a good day,
    Love & Peace
    Ama

  11. Hi Ama

    Sorry – gonna be a long one! LOL!

    “And I have to wonder why your friend is accepting messages”
    He’s not exactly ‘accepting’ them, but he is finally starting to learn that it is unwise to rise to the bait, when goaded!!

    “Or is he oppressed, or heading that way?”
    Let’s just say, he has a very unusual past, concerning a legitimate job from years ago, that he is having trouble coming to terms with. Can’t say more than that! But I’d suspected his being ‘bugged’ was all to do with that, but I needed to clarify a few things first before I could be absolutely sure!

    OK! I’m going to go back to the beginning, because I think the whole point of my starting this thread has been lost amongst other issues, somewhat. But before I do I would like to clear up a few point raised…

    I have always been reluctant to advocate or encourage anyone to talk directly with any spirit; good, evil or indifferent – particularly because, as a general rule, I refuse to do it myself. It would be hypocritical of me to encourage others to do something that I’m reluctant to do myself. With the exception of my guides or, in extreme cases, other spirit under instruction of my guides, I prefer not to converse with any of them. But if and when I do, then I’m very, very cautious about the whole thing.

    So, if someone decides, through reading this thread or any other source, to summons demons, elementals, ghosts, angels or dip their toes into anything they know nothing about without any form of proper/safe guidance , then it is THEY who take full responsibility for doing it and all that comes with it, themselves. Unfortunately, we will never stop people doing silly or dangerous things on a spiritual level – or anything else in life for that matter. If they want to do it, they will do it, regardless of what is said or what warnings are given. It is certainly not my fault, nor yours, should someone go ahead and do something out of curiosity because of a post that either you, I or someone else has authored. If we concerned ourselves too much about that, then sites like this simply would not exist because people would be too afraid to voice their point of view or experiences.

    As for what I have done as mentioned earlier on this thread, I took the responsibility myself, protected myself as much as I could and kept it strictly to the ‘need to know’ basis. There is certainly no need for me to return there, nor meet with any angel of Kushiel’s calibre again.

    I am, however, entitled to say how I understand and accept God, what my belief in God mean to me and what I consider to be right/wrong, Godly/unholy or good/ bad. My beliefs may not be identical to your understand and acceptance of God (it is all a personal journey after all) but that is not a good enough reason to demonise me (bad choice of word – sorry. Couldn’t think of anything else suitable to replace it. Maybe ‘shout me down’ might have been better?). Please feel free to debate our differences all you want, Ama, I welcome healthy discussions about different view-points, regardless of whether or not I choose to take some of it on board. But please do not presume to have authority on the knowledge of God over all others, because none of us do. If you start down that road, you’ll end up becoming as ‘closed minded’ as a lot of religions. And none of us want that Ama, least of all me.

    I know you have said what you’ve said out of genuine concern and I really do appreciate the love. But I will not have anyone tell me what I should or should not believe to be the truth. Not by you, not by the Church, not by anyone. It is for me to decide what I believe to be the truth in order to be true to it and live by it, just the same as this principle applies to you and everyone else.

    Now that’s the stroppy-ead bit out of the way, I’ll go back to why I asked the question in the first place…

    The only thing I knew about Kushiel at the point it was mentioned was it had a connection to hell. So, when my friend said about the woman displaying the fear of it my first thought was; why would a demon be scared of a demon? This was followed by Matthew 12:25 “Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, ‘Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand’.”

    A curious contradiction of thought! A thought (or concept) that could have originated from anywhere, by anything. So I started to research the concept as a whole. The reason is, this is the pivotal point on which the experiences my friend is having, revolve. Sort out this part, and the reasons behind the rest will follow. Get to the bottom of it, and then it can be sorted.
    Most of the sites I found listing angels (excluding demon names) include the angels of punishment. Indeed, most faiths believe these to be administrators whom work for and on behalf of God and not Satan. Curious, I thought. So I started to dig further dealing, into as many different belief variations on angels as I could find.

    In the end, I decided the only way to find out the truth of it was to ask the ‘boss’ Himself. I figured asking God for clarification would be the best way forward. So I meditated on the question at hand and the rest is documented above. I was expecting demon, if I’m honest. But that is not the answer I got. I was actually very taken aback by what I was told and felt.

    You don’t have to agree with me Ama. You are quite within your rights to believe it to be demonic. But I don’t believe that it is demonic. I believe I was wrong to assume that it was demonic in the first instance. That said, I would not recommend anyone go seek it out. It’s not one of the nicer, fluffier angels around. Stick to the big 4 (Uri, Raph, Mik and Gab) – you can’t go wrong with them. LOL!

    AJ
    x

  12. Hi Ama

    I must apologise for my tone in my previous post. It’s just I’m much more ‘old school’ in my outlook on God than even I had realised until that out-burst!

    There is a lot of what you have said on this topic about demons that I am in total agreement with, and plenty that makes that makes perfect sense. I just wanted you to know that I’m not at logerheads with with everything you’ve said. Far from it. That is why I value your opinion.

    As I said earlier: Thanks for your input Ama – it’s been a great help.

    AJ
    x

  13. I seem to have acquired a st-st-stutter whilst typing that last post. LOL! (shakes head, and exits; stage, left!)

  14. AJ,

    The fallen fight amongst themselves because the are ego driven, the same as we humans are ego driven and fight amongst ourselves, but yet we are not a race in ruins, not yet, at least. The Angels in Heaven do not possess what we and the demons/their leader possess; free will. To have free will, we must also have an idea of self or to be separated from “The Whole.” We then search for meaning to our existence because we are aware of our individuality. Where Angels think as part of a whlole, or “collective” demons and humans think much about theirselves and how they can advance. We compete with each other; why not demons? We war with each other and sometimes fear each other, so why not demons? There is no competition amongst the Angels in Heaven. God only gave one Angel in Heaven this kind of free will and that Angel no longer resides there. God also gave free will to the Angels who chose to “fall” with that Angel, and hence the birth of demons. To me, AJ, what Ama has said makes sense. If God is unconditionally Loving and he created his Angels to be, as well, it is impossible for those Angels, while still of God or Of The Light, to be capable of torturing any being. That is just what makes sense to me, and I do not think that, if this Kushiel exists, he is in The Light; I believe him to be of the demonic. Just my honest opinion. Hope you are having a good day! LunaTerra

  15. That’s ok, AJ, I was expecting a blast. LOL And yes, you are very old (OT) school, and neither of us like to be told we are wrong .. but we can be.

    I am guessing you don’t believe in the unconditional love of God, which Luna mentioned in her comment above. Unconditional love cannot include torture in any form. It’s foundation is based in acceptance, and in lessons to help us learn. What does a person learn from being tortured .. except how to pass on that torture/abuse to others? For punishment of that sort to exist Kushiel had to be created by those who believe that humanity deserves to suffer – and really, when it comes down to it, that means men created entities like Kushiel, not God. If Jesus’ God wanted us to suffer he would have smited us all by now, not just the select few demons choose. We constantly break the ‘rules’, deny his existence and denigrate Christian belief. So where is punishment? If actions speak louder than words (because words can be distorted) then there is no God at all, just a whole bunch of demons who have taken into their minds to punish a variety of living people, most of whom have done nothing to deserve it.

    There is no love in that form of suffering, there is only ego – and what beings are driven by ego – us and demons. And around in circles (on the subject) we go.

    Another thought: just because you deny responsibility for something does not mean you aren’t responsible. If you place a knife in front of a child and tell them not to pick it up, you are still responsible when they do it and hurt themselves, or someone else. Words mean nothing in karmic situations, intention is important, the action and result brings karma.

    Where facts are concerned you have none in the Kushiel scenario, you only have your two visions. The reality is we have multitudes of people being tortured by demons, not angels. If the demons want to clean up their act .. they can withdraw all their minions right now and leave these people in peace. I am not saying don’t discuss the subject, but the assumption that Kushiel is an angel flies in the face of its very behaviour .. and everything we are taught about angels and unconditional love. If we now must start watching our backs in case the angels turn into torturers, why would we want to trust them at all? What a great way to undermine people’s belief in a loving God and the protection our guardian angels offer us, and the wisdom and nurturing the other angels give .. and then there are our spirit guides, they might be demons too, just pretending to be human (and sadly, sometimes they are)? What’s the point of trusting God at all, if its going to send entities to torture us? What is the point of karma? What is the point of reincarnation? And without trust, what is left? It’s bad enough that hope is now missing from this world ..

    As for the history of angels of torture, humanity, ego driven, must feel it can be vindicated when it is harmed, and so it invents things like ‘carrion angels’ (modern times) to satisfy some need within itself. They do not become ‘real’ until enough people choose to believe in them (we might then call them daemon). They are not angels. They are not demons. But their actions can be demonic, because they are not based in love.

    And so to come back to the question title ‘angels of punishment – good or bad’ .. the answer, based on unconditional love is .. (I’ll qualify it with IMO), non-existent. God gave humanity free will, the right to choose our own destiny. By creating angels of punishment that free will is removed. When we do something wrong, by someone’s measure we are punished by torture? Where is the love?

    Great debate … :-)

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  16. Another thing that doesn’t seem to fit, an it could just be me, but Kushiel’s appearance being one of being weary due to a lifetime of hard labor? Sounds like his job has had a negative impact on his life. In my point of view, performing negative actions can have a negative affect on the person/being performing them. Anything that we do that is negative, be it, being quick to anger for example(one that I, myself, as many others have been guilty of at one time or another) can have a negative impact on our attitudes and well being. It is always encouraged to do things from a place of Peace, Love, acceptance and forgiveness, and it is very out of character for a being who is supposedly of The Light and to act without any of these elements. That is why I do not view this Kushiel to be a being of The Light. Sorry, throwing my two cents in again! LOL!! I do hope that everything gets sorted out in your favor for you and your friend! Peace, Love, Acceptance and Forgiveness be what surrounds you at all times! :D

  17. When I was a toddler, I went to put my hand in the burning fire because I was fascinated by the glowing coals. Luckily my mum spotted me just in time. She quickly grabbed me, roughly jurking me backwards away from the fire. She then gave my hand a sharp slap followed by a ruddy good telling off. She did this so I did not have to experience the pain of the flame, nor the perminant scares as a reminder of my foolishness.

    All I remember was being terrified of my mum because I did not understand the concept of danger I was in at that age.

    More often than not, tough love is sometimes preferable to the alternative. But that does not necessarily make it conditional love.

    As I’ve said, see God in a way that is best for you two. But for me, I prefer the firm but fair concept.

    AJ
    x

  18. I agree, AJ, that we should see God, and God’s love, in the ways we want to, but I cannot see torture as being part of the love of God, and an entity that tortures a human as being part of the angelic kingdom. To me that turns God into a monster, and gives permission to the human race to do exactly what that God does, through its created angel of punishment. And it raises more questions .. since we are supposed to become like God, to be able to return to God, why haven’t we all gone into heaven yet since we are all busy trying to destroy ourselves and each other? Why did Jesus teach about forgiveness and turning the other cheek if everyone was going to be punished after they died anyway? Why do so many people bother teaching about unconditional love if its a phallacy? I have lots more questions, but I’ll leave it alone.

    God help us all if that is the case. Thankfully it is not part of my experience with God, either in this lifetime, or any other lifetime, or before my lives. The God that saved me loves me unconditionally. It accepts me as I am, questions and all. Perhaps when humanity stops believing in their need to be punished for their sins, entities such as Kushiel will cease to exist .. but then again, that says it was human created, not by God.

    You raise such interesting topics, AJ. I know how annoying I have been, and I apologise for it.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  19. Hi Luna

    Have you read 1 Enoch – Book Of The Watchers?

    For those who haven’t: Basically, God grew weary of the watchers for interfereing with humans and producing hybrid (angel-human) off-spring. So, He threatened to destroy the lot – animals, humans, the Nephilim, vegitation … everything. Thankfully Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel were present before God to testify on behalf of Humankind, asking for devine intervention to save but a few of all living things (see Noah)so that life could continue afresh, with a clean slate.

    I’m not really into the whole apocolyptic thing that is presently supposed to be looming above our heads but, if I were, the appearance alone of Kushiel could be construde as a very worrying sign. If the Rigid One of God has grown weary, then that can only mean one thing – total and utter change! I’m sure thats how the doom-mungers out there would have viewed it though.

    As for appearance itself – I don’t take much heed of what I see or hear. Said that earlier in this thread. It is all about the energy for me.

    What I will say though, is this. When I drempt of Kushiel back in 1993 I did not, or was not given the opportunity to, feel the energy – had much more pressing things to worry about at the time! Besides, I had no reason to take note of its energy because it was in the pit (or ‘mine’ as I recall my description in 93?) so, technically, Kushiel was not in the same place I was.

    But, a visual representation of what we perceive or understand something to be is a good place from which to start the ‘investigation’. Had Kushiel come into the ‘Great Golden Hall’ looking nothing remotely like I remembered it from 1993, would I have got the point behind what was being shown? Would I have been able to make the connection?

    So, to conclude, what Kushiel looks like is unimportant. But sometimes we need a memory prompt in order to make sense of what is being conveyed – understand the message being given. In humans, vision is the dominant sense thus why, when it comes to Spirit, we tend to ‘see’ things first then worry about clarifying and authentifying it later.

    As for my friend – all sorted! Thanks! He really needs to forgive himself so ‘they’ have nothing to latch on to and pick away at. He was only following orders, after all! He needs to keep reminding himself of that!

    AJ
    x

  20. Hi Ama

    Just reading back through one of your previous posts and couldn’t resist being a bit flippant. LOL!

    Ama said; ” What does a person learn from being tortured .. except how to pass on that torture/abuse to others?”

    I guess those who participate in and enjoy S&M lean loads – hahaha! (Sorry! Couldn’t resist! LOL!)

    Seriously though, I know what you’re getting at, having been on the receiving end myself. I personally would not want to pass that kind of experience on to anybody. Nor would I want to be abused like that again. But, there are some strange folk out there that are willing to be both the recipiant and the aggressor. They get off on it. But, each to their own I suppose so long as everyone involved is willing and getting something ‘positive’ out of it for them.

    Ama: You raise such interesting topics, AJ.

    Thank you. I try my best.

    Ama: I know how annoying I have been, and I apologise for it.

    Don’t apologise, please – it’s good and healthy to debate these things, so long as it doesn’t turn into being preached at – lol! I do miss the fundies, in an S&M kind of way – hahaha! Wonder why they’ve got ventured on here yet?

    AJ
    x

  21. Luna might not have read Enoch, but I’ve read all three, and they weren’t written by Enoch so the truth of them is really up for debate, AJ. Then there’s Milton’s Paradise Lost. And then there’s Swedenborg’s journey with the angels, and multitudes of other people’s visions, some that contradict each other, others that are majorly apocalyptic, and all have the same foundation .. written, or channeled, through human interpretation. I guess we’ll see come December 21st, since that the new ‘key’ date, until the PTB’s change it to the 21st December 2025, which is when someone else recently said the Mayan calendar really ends?

    Thinking of angels of punishment, I have to return to psychology and consider what happens when a person constantly lives in fear? The psychological damage can end up being profound, or they can become the very thing they fear, just to survive. It’s the same when we are angry. The anger burns away inside us causing all sorts of problems. Perhaps that’s why Jesus tried to teach us to love one another and forgive easily, and turn the other cheek.

    Human beings often fear what they do not understand .. instead of seeking the understanding, and to control others they want to pass on that fear, share it around, so that they can find some comfort, and support, from within their group, or as a control measure. They create things to fear, and stories become myths, and myths because legends, and legends become facts .. that when you dig into them disappear in a puff of smoke. Like Job in the bible, a story that didn’t even have an Israelite foundation .. no, Job came from Uz, and his friends from other nations as well, and yet that book has been frightening Christians for the past 2000 years, and it still does .. when people read only the surface and not dig down into the history.

    IMO, we have to stop looking for the pain, the fear and the anger. As a solution they are not working. They just engender more of their own kind, and we, as a species, are in enough pain already. So it comes back to the question, for me, of ‘where is the love ..’?

    Wishing you a peaceful day, and me a good night,
    Love & Peace
    Ama

  22. I don’t think CT is advertising us, and we don’t have the constant inflow of ghost stories that TGT had, that used to draw people here. When I found that site I was hunting ghost stories, but I can’t remember why?

    There’s a lot of stuff on the Aussie news about pedophiles and the Catholic church right now. It always puzzles me why priests would defy God when they are working for ‘him’? The karma of people like that must be a huge burden, but it still doesn’t make sense to me to pass it on to others .. and pedophelia can be a learned behaviour. I could understand an entity of ‘punishment’ being created by their actions and beliefs, but not one created by God. Karma is enough of a burden without a cat-of-nine-tails.

    Wishing you a good day,
    Love & Peace
    Ama

  23. Ah! yeah! The Meyan calandar. What I want to know is; in who’s 21st December and who’s midnight (or whatever it is supposed to be) is this supposed to happen, exactly? UK time? Australa time? Meyan time? LOL!

    I don’t hold much store in the apocolyptic tag associated with that either. There may be change (experiencing some lovely Northern Light displays over Scotland at the moment btw) but total and absolute distruction? Hmmm.

    By 1 Enoch I was referring to the specific book – not the author. Lets face it most of the stories in the Holy books are about the people rather than written by them. This always leaves plenty of room for mis-interpretaion or artistic licence. I didn’t mean for it to come across as me quoting the Book of the Watchers to be the absolute truth, just putting forward a hypothosis. People see things in different ways. For example; one person’s ‘weary’ might mean ‘wanting to rest’ or ‘beaten/trodden down’ whilst another person’s ‘weary’ might mean ‘the need for change’. Luna asked the question, so I tried to answer it. I don’t know why the angel presented itself in that way visually. Nor does it matter what it looks like – other than how we translate what we ‘see’ in order to get meaning from it.

    AJ
    x

  24. “Karma is enough of a burden without a cat-of-nine-tails.”

    I guess it depends if you believe in karma (in its traditional sense) or not? For some, the cat-0-nine-tails IS the karma. The punishment they chose to receive.

    I suspect the priests who have defied God would prefer to put themselves forward for a more ‘traditional punishment’ rather than karmic one, to redeem themselves from their sins? If, indeed, they think they deserve to be punished in the first place.

    Ama: why priests would defy God when they are working for ‘him’

    Interesting point. But there are those who work in the Vatican that proclaim the Devil is most prominant there. It is said most high-ranking priests are disillusioned with the whole prossess and there are reports that some there don’t even believe in God!! I think it was Gabriele Amorth who proclaimed these things, but I’d have to check.

    But then, the Catholic Church has been hiding Satan’s actions for years. Not just peodiphilia, but other ‘crimes against God’ too. Indeed, according to the Pope, kiddie-fiddling wasn’t even considered a tincy bit naughty back in the ’70’s, let alone unGodly or sinful in the eyes of the Lord.

    Still, we have to remember; religions are administered by men, not God. Religious doctrine is written by men, not God. Faith is where God resides, not in the Churches or the Holy temples.

    AJ
    x

  25. Morning AJ,

    I think you just answered one of my questions. You said

    “For some, the cat-0-nine-tails IS the karma. The punishment they chose to receive” ..

    but karma is not about punishment, although I probably wrote it that way somewhere along the line. It is about balance an act of evil (or good) with the repercussions of the action. A lashing with a cat-of-nine-tails is an ego driven response, and IMO not nearly enough punishment for someone who rapes a child. A ghost might choose that, thinking it was enough, but a spirit, who’s nature has returned to its connection to God, would know that the punishment is an illusion, and therefore has no real benefit in balancing karma. It is more likely that the images came from within your own mind, because most visions are created, and certainly interpreted, from the symbology of our belief systems.

    I’ve also read about the divisions within the Vatican, and the stuff they get up to. The Catholic church is corrupt, and even they know it. And sadly, many priests do not believe in God, but not all of them are pedophiles, for some the House of God is simply a business.

    Yes, religious doctrine is written by men, so why do we then believe what ‘men’ write about angels of any kind? What were you researching before an entity called Kushiel decided to pay you a visit? How does seeing it support your belief system? What do you think would have happened if you had said ‘don’t be daft, God doesn’t punish anyone’?

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  26. Hmm..you are asking the same questions I am, AJ. :-) I believe the day begins around the island of Samoa .. it reaches Australia (past New Zealand) about 4 hours later .. but I am guessing that?

    And your weary looking entity is an energy being, so his appearance was an illusion, perhaps created to entice you to have sympathy for him, and give him a feed of your energy in that hug. Mind you, I have seen two weary Michaels over the years, but they were both fallen angels. Light angels don’t feel tired the way we can, or emotions the way we do, and have no reason to lie to us in any form, certainly not in something as important as a vision.

    It does matter how an entity presents itself to a person, because its appearance adds to the picture/interpretation of the vision. Visions are very complex, and have many layers of meaning, often far more than we realise at first analysis, but I am telling you what you already know.

    I put a new question about visions onto the site, because it is very interesting subject in itself. Why do we see what we see in so many different ways?

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  27. Hi Ama

    “but karma is not about punishment”

    I’m sure Martin will be thrilled to learn that being paralysed is not some form of punishment for a misdemeanour from a past life – lol!

    I am, of course, only joking. Sh@t just happens in life and no one or nothings to blame. But, that flippant comment does underline the fundamental problem I have with the concept of karma because, the way I see it, Karma is just another form of punishment, dressed up in a different way to make it seem less nasty.

    “Yes, religious doctrine is written by men, so why do we then believe what ‘men’ write about angels of any kind? “

    Exactly!

    “What were you researching before an entity called Kushiel decided to pay you a visit?”

    You have completely misunderstood my previous posts – most likely due to my not explaining myself correctly.

    Kushiel has never paid me a visit. It has never left where it is supposed to be. I was researching the concept of Kushiel due to my friend’s predicament. My books and internet research concluded conflicting knowledge of Kushiel. So I chose to ignore the lot and go find out about the concept of it directly, instead. I requested knowledge of it from God. What I did and why I did it is all written in the threads of this topic.

    “How does seeing it support your belief system?”

    It answered the question at hand. Hopefully my friend will now be able to see things in a different light and start to forgive himself for what he had done.

    “What do you think would have happened if you had said ‘don’t be daft, God doesn’t punish anyone’?”

    This was not a journey for spiritual enlightenment. More a journey to seek God’s advice on the matter at hand. I was on a quest to find out the true concept of punishment and if, indeed, everyone who administers it are still deemed ‘evil’ in the eyes of the Lord, even if it was done for the greater good, in the name of the good-guys. The truth of it had a great baring on how to proceed in order to help my friend.

    I really do wish I was in a position to fully enlighten you as to my friend’s past, because then all this might make more sense to you then. But afraid his past is far too sensitive a subject to discuss in any great depth. Probably said too much already.

    AJ
    x

  28. Morning AJ,

    You said: “I’m sure Martin will be thrilled to learn that being paralysed is not some form of punishment for a misdemeanour from a past life – lol!”

    No, the one that gets up people’s noses is when you try and explain that the person chose the accident as one of their possible life lessons, before they came into the world. It’s a metaphysical belief that nothing happens without a reason, and that we give ourselves profound challenges to overcome, because it teaches us about issues such as perseverence, compassion, courage, strength, love, kindness, judgment .. and that’s just thinking about Martin’s situation without knowing him.

    You said: “Karma is just another form of punishment, dressed up in a different way to make it seem less nasty.”

    Is being made responsible for our actions a form of punishment? IMO, because it our actions that create our karma it is not a punishment ‘from’ anyone, except perhaps ourselves, as I said above. We choose to do harm, we should also then choose to repay that harm in some way. This planet is so much about balance .. just look around .. night and day, earth and air, fire and water, male and female, up and down (gravity), right and wrong (no shades of grey although we want to find nuances in every situation to justify our actions). Karma is, in the end, ‘right’ for ‘wrong’ (what we sow, we reap (biblical)) .. and there’s the balance.

    You said Kushiel’s first visit (your vision) was back in 1993. I was thinking about then.

    I haven’t misunderstood anything you wrote during this conversation. Regardless of the reasons for your actions, there are lessons in the experience for you also, or you would not be part of your friend’s process of learning. And it ‘is’ a journey of spiritual enlightenment, for both of you. Any time we connect to God with questions we are seeking enlightenment (which simply means knowledge).

    As for doing evil, even for the greater good .. there’s always karma there. How do we know that our actions were actually ‘for’ the greater good? There are so few people who can ‘read’ the future. For example, is it right to murder a murderer? Their actions are bad enough, but in murdering them do we stop them from redeeming themselves somehow, later in life. We cannot know the right path for another person, and we have no right to take away another person’s opportunity to grow and change. I am also thinking about all the people who killed others during the wars in the past, and the current times. There is karma to balance for every action for them too, because they chose to ‘follow orders’, and karma for those who gave the orders. Jesus’ God said ‘work from love’, he didn’t say ‘kill in my name’ – no, that was Jehovah – or ‘because the government said so’ … We need to pull our heads out of the OT and work more with the God of peace, IMO.

    I’m glad you have been able to help your friend. Now its up to him to take the knowledge you have given him, from your visions filtered through your belief system, and change his life for the better. What would you do if he chose to ignore everything you said and keep going the way he is, or did something to make the situation worse, because that is his right too? You don’t need to answer that one.

    Great conversation,
    Love & Peace
    Ama

  29. Hi Ama

    Talking of Karma (sorry CT, going to go off topic for a moment) I met up with my Buddhist client/friend the other week and the conversation somehow managed to turn from work to the subject of karma, amongst other matters of a spiritual nature. This I found strange, because we’ve never disussed anything of this nature before. She did have a very tough time after her mum died and I did offer to be a shoulder to cry on, but that is it. But the last time we met, she just came out with it and said I am one of the few ‘outsiders’ that she feels really comfortable discussing spiritual matters with, no matter what they are and needed to discuss something. (I admit, I was very flattered that she felt so comfortable with me, but not sure what I have ever said or done to deserve this ‘respect’.)

    Anyhow, she wanted to discuss something the Monk had said to her earlier that day. She helps out at the local Buddhist temple and, whilst there that day, one of the monks came up to her and asked if she had any children. She replied; no. He then went on to explain that was a good thing because children bring bad karma. In other words, she had received good karma for not having children.

    I asked her to explain why the monk said that, because surely the whole point of being here is to bring new life into the world and prosper? Is it not other way around; against God not to bring life into the world? To which she replied, the reasoning was because they do not want to come back, that is bad karma in itself because the Buddhist spirit is striving to be reunited with the ‘source’ forever.

    She then went on to state that Buddhism is very selfish because it is about improving self and not others. So I thought about this for a second or two then replied, but surely it is only if others do not benefit from, or there is a negative knock-on effect from that selfish act, that it is truly selfish? I don’t know how, but this seemed to clarify something within her and she seemed much more settled about what the monk had said to her after that.

    A very interesting concept.

    But I still don’t know why she sought something from me – I am the least likely person to talk to about karma, as I simply don’t get it! I am much more simplistic in thought on these matters. I try to follow Jesus’ teaching; love thy neighbour, do unto others etc. because, for me, the reward received is within administering the act itself, the good feeling we get from doing a good deed, not the presumption that I am to expect to receive a reward for that good act at a later date.

    That said, I have received the ‘milk of human kindness’ from the most unlikely and surprising sources in the past, with absolutely no clue as to why that person would want to put themselves out for me like that. It’s not like I have ever done anything for them. I always put it down to ‘God was watching over me that day’ but I guess, in the Buddhist mind-set, that would be called Karma.

    AJ
    x

  30. I’ve never thought of buddhism as a selfish belief system, but I think your friend is right in a way. It is self-focused, as people struggle to achieve a state of mind which will kick them off the karma cycle, but like anything else, its a choice for this lifetime, and who knows what the person might choose to believe in their next lifetime.

    I wonder at the monk’s motives in saying that children are bad karma. We don’t demand they come into the world, not according to what I have been taught and experienced .. they choose to be born to us as their parents. We learn from each other, or I hope we do. I know my kids teach me a lot, and I had my turn with them when they were younger. So there is no bad karma there, IMO.

    I guess, like any belief system, we take from it what we want it to mean and adapt it to suite ourselves. An example of this might be seen in the behaviour of some young buddhists monks who setting themselves on fire, at the moment (from the news), trying to get the world’s attention to the plight of the Tibetans in China. Buddhism is about peace, not destruction, and killing yourself is still bad karma. It’s very sad. I wonder if they have a leader demanding this behaviour, or they can’t think of any other way of helping themselves, and what karma (or blessing) they think they will gain, or gather from their acts?

    AJ, I love that you are benefiting from random acts of kindness, and people who feel they can talk about themselves with you. I know it can be odd, but acts of kindness have their own return, and perhaps the good you have been doing others is now coming your way, to help you understand the concepts of karma? Is there any other patterns you can see within the experiences?

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  31. Hi Ama

    You said: “I wonder at the monk’s motives in saying that children are bad karma. We don’t demand they come into the world, not according to what I have been taught and experienced .. they choose to be born to us as their parents. ”

    Yep! I admit, I struggled a bit with that one myself. I guess it’s the way we are taught to view God that defines it?

    I did ask my friend the reasons behind the Monks comment because I did not understand. She said it was because we put our own ‘enlightenment’ on hold, for motherhood. We spend years worrying about and focusing on another. This creates negative energy within ourselves from the worry and responsibility. I admit, I still don’t quite understand how such a selfless act as motherhood is deemed ‘bad karma’. I guess I’ll never understand it. As you’ve said, there is a lot to learn from motherhood and most of it must be positive.

    Mind you, I think my friend needed clarification for what the monk had said too. Other wise, why else would she have wanted to discuss it with me?

    Ama “…and perhaps the good you have been doing others is now coming your way, to help you understand the concepts of karma? Is there any other patterns you can see within the experiences?”

    I’d always felt incredibly guilty about accepting help when others show me acts of kindness, without strings – especially from strangers. I felt indepted to them because I could not return the favour. It made me feel uncomfortable because I had no way of giving back. But stangely, after I said to my Buddhist friend that nothing is purly a selfish act provided someone else benefits, it suddenly struck home. Maybe I should, instead of feeling bad about accepting anothers charitable act, look at their actions as I view my own. I get pleasure from the act itself, not what I might expect to receive at a later date because of it, so why would they view it any differntly themselves? The pleasure is always in the giving, after all!

    So, I’m now going to try and stop feeling guilt or indebtedness whenever anyone, particularly a stranger, genuinely wants to try and help me out of kindness alone.

    Not sure if that has helped me understand the concept of karma though, it was just a kick up the backside from my beloved guides telling me to stop being so hard on myself!

    AJ
    x

  32. Hey AJ!!
    The best thing you can do with the kindness offered from strangers is to “pay it forward.” As you said, the joy is in the giving, so, when you are able, return the favor to someone else in need. Spreading kindness that way, will eventually have an effect all over the world and what a great feeling that would be to know that through your act of kindness, you can effect change! That is what I intend to do for the kindness paid to me by the woman in the grocery store.(on my entry about Spirit Rescue) I may never see that woman again, and the greatest thank you I think I can give her is to help someone else out in a similar situation.

    As for the Buddhist concept of karma; I reall don’t understand it. Aren’t we all part of a whole? Wouldn’t good karma be not just to better ourselves, but also to aid in bettering others? One day, we will all return to Source or God, will we not? Eventually we will all be one in God’s Light so, for me, Karma is not just in the betterment of self, but in the betterment of others as well in order to strengthen the whole. I do not begrudge your friends choice in belief systems; it gives her peace and an understanding of life, it does not harm and I am all for it; I just don’t understand it, and it doesn’t follow along with what I believe, but we are all on our own spiritual journeys and paths to enlightenment and must chose those paths ourselves! Sorry, CT for taking this WAY off topic!! LOL!! I guess, back to the question at hand!

  33. Hi Luna

    You said”The best thing you can do with the kindness offered from strangers is to “pay it forward.”

    Wise words indeed! But then, you’ve probably already done many a good deed prior to receiving one???? That is the trouble I have with Karma – where does it begin and where does it end.

    You said “Spreading kindness that way, will eventually have an effect all over the world ”

    That is how I see it too. Give, give, give. If you give enough, eventually the takers of this world might actually realise who feels better about themselves, then start to give instead of take.

    You said “As for the Buddhist concept of karma; I reall don’t understand it.”

    No, neither do I! I guess it is the same with Buddhism as with all religions and beliefs. The fundamental message is universally the same, but the human element kinda twists it! LOL!

    You said “…but we are all on our own spiritual journeys ..”

    Yes, and what glorious journeys they are – each and every one of them.

    You said “Sorry, CT for taking this WAY off topic!! LOL!! I guess, back to the question at hand”

    LOL! And yes, sorry CT. But I could turn it around to a negative karma/punishment experience my friend had last week, if that helps!!

    AJ
    x

  34. Morning AJ,

    You said: “She said it was because we put our own ‘enlightenment’ on hold, for motherhood. We spend years worrying about and focusing on another. This creates negative energy within ourselves from the worry and responsibility.”

    Now there’s a puzzle. Focusing on caring for another person creates negativity from the worry and responsibility? Does your friend have kids? You don’t really have time to focus on worry and responsibility. You sometimes feel you don’t have time to breathe. LOL

    Hmm … If you let it it creates resentment for the lack of free time, lack of silence, lack of good sleep, constant demands of bratty, or sick, kids, but .. it also brings profound joy, appreciation, love, entertainment, hugs .. so its up to us how we react to the challenge, and what we get from all the experieces .. sounds like life lessons to me. :-)

    Did I put my enlightenment on hold when I had my kids, or did the lessons continue in abundance, as did my stress levels .. Well, I remember my guides saying that I was taking time out until my kids grew up, but I was happy about that, because I didn’t want them frightened by the weird stuff that often happened around the house.

    Looking back (hindsight generally being 20/20) I can see how much I learned from those kids over the years, so no, my enlightenment wasn’t put on hold. And I know it was me creating the stress, sometimes because of their behaviour, or my boredom .. but that was my doing, not theirs, so I was making my own ‘bad’ karma, if there was any from that period in my life.

    Worry and responsibility? I learned to be a better person – from that point of view, motherhood was a gift to me. I learned a ton of things about myself, and have great kids, all grown up now. Did they help with my enlightenment .. oh yes, they also helped to teach me patience .. what little I have of it. LOL

    So no, motherhood is not bad karma. It is a time when selflessness is important. It is a time when giving until you hurt takes on a whole new meaning. You can go insane. LOL You can also become a better person because of it. And I chose to have my kids when I did, it didn’t happen by accident, which might make difference, I think. When pregnancy is forced on a person, when they don’t want it, or can’t cope, maybe how they feel about the child is different, or maybe they will simply love them anyway?

    As for a selfish person, motherhood would be a nightmare, either for the mother or the kids. Kids need to know they are loved and they will thrive. Good food is important too, but kids are still turned into truly wonderful adults without an abundance of it.

    I wonder if the ‘negative karma’ angle gives some people an excuse not to have children, rather than having to confront their own attitudes to their needs and wants in life?

    Not a paranormal topic, but still very interesting!

    Lessons in receiving are not always easy. When we resent a person for ‘giving’ to us, when we can give nothing in return .. that would make karma. Instead, simply say thank you, and appreciate that the person feels you are worthy of the gift. The words ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ are a gift of energy given to the other person, not just good manners. We should be taught that in schools, instead of having it forgotten.

    Perhaps you could look at why you are frightened to receive? How much do you value your own worth? That’s what I had to look at when I felt as you did. Now I am always grateful when people are generous with me. If I can give nothing else, I’ll give them a hug and a smile and make sure they feel appreciated for their actions. In a way its opening a door to abundance, for the giver and receiver.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  35. I love your viewpoint on the world, AJ .. if you give enough eventually the takers will wake up? I share it, in a way “be the example of what you want the world to be” (Buddha). In reality, most takers take until they exhaust the source and then can’t understand why the person who is being so nice to them suddenly decides not to be nice anymore (in other words, says no to their demands). They have to have tunnel vision, or are incapable of seeing themselves, because when you point out their behaviour to them, they can’t see anything wrong with it. But what you have in this example is the two extremes, which is an imbalance in energy and causes hurt to both people. We each need to learn to give generously, and receive equally well, then the balance exists within each of us.

    You said: “That is the trouble I have with Karma – where does it begin and where does it end.”

    Karma is a circle, it has no beginning and no ending – or you could see it as beginning when your spirit was first created, and ending when you return to the Creator. We don’t usually know the good or evil we have done in other lives, all we can see is what is happening in front of us. Some of those people who have been so kind to you might have had karmic debts to pay to you in this lifetime, so their acts of generosity, which puzzle you, may just be the end of their debt to you, and their freedom from that pattern. Your “thank you” honours their actions.

    Luna, karma makes us responsible for our actions. Learning to be responsible is one of our life lessons. It takes courage and strength to own-up when we do something wrong, and repay an evil act with one of open-hearted goodness. We might not be able to do that in one lifetime, but ‘carrying it forward’ allows us to do so in other lives. I love the concept of ‘pay it forward’, a good for a good, not evil for evil .. though some people do that too.

    Karma is a very interesting topic .. (thanks CT LOL)

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  36. The Karmic concept is way too complicated for me. I’ll stick to the basic’s as taught by Jesus, I think! LOL!

    But I agree with you wholeheartedly about Motherhood. And no, my friend doesn’t have children.

    Thanks Ama & Luna

    AJ
    x

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