Does Hell Truly Exist?

Hey all

So this may sound like a dumb question, but I have my reasons for asking this.

Dante’s Vision of Hell

Does hell truly exist?

My reason is this:

I’m not extremely familiar with the bible but I know my way around it. I believe in eternal reoccurrence, which is also a teaching of the bible by the way (ECC 1:9) “that which was, is what shall be and that which is done is that which shall be done and there is no new thing under the sun”

(The bible seems to go around in circles too – but I’m not going into detail)

We are made of energy and anybody can tell you that energy can’t be destroyed.

I believe in the awesome power of “God”, because it is the one infinite power controlling our never-ending madness of death and rebirth, but somehow I can’t wrap my head around the over-exaggerated tale of hell, and sinners burning and being tortured endlessly in a pit of fire. It doesn’t seem to fit into anything.

Was this just a false teaching the Catholic church made up to control the masses with fear? If it does exist, could it be possible that it is located on another “place” on Earth (not a physical place – if you know what I mean)

I don’t doubt the existence of spirits and demons – I have way too many experiences behind my back to even doubt, but the typical thought of hell is just too far fetched for my liking.

Any thoughts?

Kind regards Sun!que

Asked by sun!que

49 Comments
  1. Hello Sun!que!!
    My understanding is that Hell does exist. There are some of us on here, who have “touched down” there, but my understanding is, also, that Hell is a place for Demons, and not humans. You pretty much have the right idea about churches and religions using Hell to control the masses. Mankind, is inevitably corrupt and religion is man made. You see, I believe we reincarnate, and somehow, very sneakily, The Bible hints at it, too!! Hence your quote:
    “(ECC 1:9) “that which was, is what shall be and that which is done is that which shall be done and there is no new thing under the sun”

    There’s nothing new under the sun, because we keep coming back here!!! LOL! We are here to learn lessons and to repay Karma. karma, for those who do not understand it, is a basic spiritual law where not deed goes unpaid. If, for example, we wrong someone in this life, say murder an entire family, that very deed could be repaid to us in another life, if we do not pay for our crimes in this one. Nothing goes overlooked. Some people may “get away” with their crimes in this life, but have to repay that crime in another life. Also, something else towrap your head around, we send OURSELVES back every single time; God doesn’t do that. WE do! We come back time and again to learn and grow more, spiritually and to repay our debts to Karma. One basic thing I could not wrap my own head around, and in fact do not believe is, God being and unconditionally loving Being also sending us to Damnation and torture for something we did wrong. It is easier for me to believe that WE reincarnate to learn and pay back our misdeeds, and all the while our Loving Father awaits our return. Best of luck on your spiritual journey! We all travel it and we must come to our own conclusions!! Peace, Love and Light, LunaTerra

  2. Hi Sun!que

    Technically hell didn’t exist in the Old Testament, and it was a new addition in the New. Revelation gave it force and ‘soul’, based on OT prophets (who were, for the most part, from other religions) .. but the simplest explanation I’ve ever understood, is that demons exist and have to have a home too. I’ve read that hell is fiery and hot, or fiercely cold .. but it has no seasons. I’ve read its a place of torture, but, like Luna above, I don’t believe a God that teaches ‘Love one another’ and ‘turn the other cheek’ is going to send anyone to be punished for eternity. What do we learn from eternal punishment, that no one can yet prove is true? What do we truly learn from living in fear, except to fear everyone and everything around us, and strike out from that fear?

    I wonder if hell is like indigestion? Since everything is within the Creator (the creator is everything says the bible), then hell is also within God. Well, we know the OT God was certainly judgmental, cruel and untrustworthy .. look at what happened to Job .. but Jesus’ God .. that’s a whole different story.

    In my experience Hell exists because I’ve been there. It exists within the mind of many lost souls (ghosts) that I have ‘found’ over the years, and hauled out and sent to a healing place within that same energy. It exists because they created it, not God. We create our reality, that’s our gift from God, and until we learn not to hate, there will always be a place where hatred and fear rules .. and that’s my definition of hell.

    Should we fear hell? No, but we should be very wary of karma. Karma can be cruel, but only if we are cruel first. It is our greatest teacher, as is Free Will .. the right to decide what your ‘reality’ is.

    Love & Peace
    Ama Nazra

  3. Hey all,

    The mind is a powerful thing, and what you said is true – God does not control anything we do as we have been given free will. Knowing that karma is a law of life so to speak, it gives me a new perspective – thank you for that.
    One truly captivating theory I came across was that demons were a product of our own creation, because of hate and negativity, not to mention black magic and so forth.
    The bible can be a very captivating piece of work if read right. LOL
    Ama – I think you might have answered a few things for me.

    Many thanks

  4. Hi Sun!que,

    Some ‘demons’ are created by humans, we call them negative thoughtforms, or ‘attachments’, because they attach themselves to people and cause havoc. They can also be called daemon, because humans can deliberately create an energy form to do their bidding, if they know how – but not every daemon is evil.

    I’m glad I could help.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  5. Hello again Sun!que!
    There are some demons that are created by man, some would call them Daemons or Tulpas. There are many different energy forms that exist in our world and in the realm of spirit. We, as humans, are creator beings, therefore we can create our own energy beings through strong emotions, such as hate, anger, depression, sadness or despair, to name a few. If our emotion is strong enough, it almost takes on a life of it’s own. There are also demons created by the Devil or other demons as well. God created the Devil; the Devil is a fallen Angel and the original demons were the angels that fell with him/her. God loves all of His creations, including the devil and is waiting patiently for the devil to one day see the light and return home. These are my beliefs, and not everyone shares them, but I hope this helps you figure things out!

  6. LOL!!! I didn’t see your post, here, Ama until I posted mine!!! I think I speak “your” English!!! LOL!!!

  7. Hi all

    There is one thing that has always puzzled me about the concept that Heaven and Hell are ‘physical’ places (Bible) and that is, why would something of spirit (without physical form) need a physical place to reside?

    This being the case, I see Heaven and Hell as being conceptual, rather than physical. It’s more about energy balance/inbalance (our conscience) rather than earth, air, wind and fire (physical space).

  8. hehe….well. My first response to this question of whether hell exists or not, would be “Absolutely! It has many names, but I call it “the workplace” or “office”!!!!” :)

    So allow me to derail just a bit:
    What is the history of the “physical” manifestations of hell, A.J.? I thought this started with Zoroastrianism. But did it start before that? Does it have influence from many sects or just a few influential ones? Are there religions /belief systems that adopted this early on, but have long since removed relevance?

    Second thought: I agree that any non-physical form wouldn’t need a physical realm in which to perceive any level of self (including justice). But then you have to ask the question: “yeah, but didn’t we, at some point, for some reason?” If you believe that our base self is a soul, then what was the purpose of corporeal containment? Was it to perceive a hell? We could have many reasons for manifesting a physical realm. If it was ever so we could experience sovereignty and disassociation from creator, then who’s to say we haven’t achieved in making a hell for ourselves? Not that it’s my stance..just a thought…

    Edgar Cayce says: “All you may know of heaven or hell is within your own self.” I tend to agree… So my vote is for it being a conceptual realm, where hope is nil. In that way, “forgetting” could be the all encompassing hell. Or perhaps knowing you forgot something…..Or maybe that you belong to something greater, but are unable to remember how to associate with it, based on current conditions…..well…..that would pretty much sum up any human on planet earth, haha! But at that level, concept becomes reality.

    Point being, conceptual and real are separated only by intent here. If I perceive life to “be” hell, do I make life hell for just myself? Or worse, do I make hell for everyone around me by law of propagation? In this way, a conceptual hell could turn into a very literal hell if one was not careful. If two or more are even less careful, we creep ever so more to it being an inevitability. Throw in a makeup artist, kill the air conditioning and replace everyone with grumpy DMV employees, we perfectly simulate what Dante was hinting at. :)

    -Siddle

  9. It’s the whole ‘you will be resurrected in your body’ theme, AJ. Since our bodies are physical, heaven and hell had to be too .. otherwise it makes no sense. But since our bodies also rot away, the whole concept of being resurrected in them, probably led to the zombie theme .. half rotten people standing around with bits dropping off, feeling very confused? Ok, so that’s just a bit of nonsense, but since I am very ‘literal’ in my interpretations of things, that’s the images I used to get as a kid. Not nice.

    Love & Peace
    Ama :-)

  10. Then there’s the Christian belief that humans will be horribly punished in hell, and how do you punish a spirit being .. when you can’t touch it? No, you had to have a physical form that could feel pain.

    I’m with you on the ‘hell on earth’ theme, Siddle. And the separation .. if we are separated from our bodies (no cremation! its banned) then we cannot be resurrected .. but .. if the body has rotted in the earth after 1000’s of years, aren’t the spirits of those people separated from resurrection too .. no, hang on a minute, didn’t I have a very vivid ‘dream’, one night years ago, of going through the ancient part of Highgate Cemetery (London) and grabbing the hands sticking up out of the ground, hauling people out and saying ‘Second Coming, you have been redeemed, you are going to heaven now’ .. and there wasn’t just me doing this, in the ‘dream’, there were about 20 of us .. and I woke up with very sore shoulders that morning – and just as a side note, years later we got a movie called ‘What dream may come’ and it was so like that dream of mine, when Robin Williams rescued his ‘wife’.

    The greatest punishment, IMO, is separation from Source, God by whatever name, and yet we choose to do that deliberately .. we separate ourselves from LOVE .. that’s hell to me.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  11. Ama,
    Sorry, love, I may have misread something….always possible when I hurry through break time, but I have to disagree with your last comment.

    “Since our bodies are physical, heaven and hell had to be too .. otherwise it makes no sense.”

    If I took that out of context, I apologize, and please disregard. But if I’m to read that literally, then what of dreams? I’ve never “died” in this life (that I’m aware of). Probably in the last…so we could add “remembrance of past life” into this equation….but dreams are the only things that make me question this. I’ve died many times in dreams. Horrible pain, of the likes I’ve (thankfully) yet to experience in waking reality.

    My dreams tell me that I can “feel” more there, then in reality.
    So I guess we could debate whether dreams are an actual physical existence that our astral bodies travel to…but then what of the “physical”/material? If that’s just for conscious translation purposes…then what was the need to ever be physical matter in the first place?
    Maybe that’s just me. If I had never “felt” anything in dreams, I probably wouldn’t have this stance. ;)

    I do completely agree with your statements about “hell on Earth”. I don’t know why we would ever wish to separate ourselves from God. Now this is a random thought…so nobody go thinking it’s my stance….but I would first have to answer the question of “is God perfect”? I dare not say it outloud…and I have some deep rooted fear that the “Source” would be mad at me for even thinking this. But in truth…do we understand “perfection” for God? What if we volunteered for separation, as a means to be probes for God, yet God thought it was failable data, unless we cut ties.
    It’s possible we are here, in a self-manifest hell, just so we can report back experiences once we return. So maybe I just still have an unsettled feeling about the whole ‘physical vs. conceptual’ argument. Sure, this world seems rooted in the physical….but so do my dreams.

  12. Ah Siddle, you raise some very interesting points.

    Let’s do them upside down .. is God perfect? What I was taught, about human creation, is that God wanted to learn about itself, so first it created the angels – which are only servants and have no free will, and then, because it wanted something a little more chaotic, it created humanity, with free will .. so that through observation .. since interaction seemed to cause nothing but hatred etc (all that emotion in primitive people), if you go by the OT … God could learn about itself. Does that make God perfect? Hmm.. in a very broad sense, yes, since everything we are is ‘within’ it .. if you have that belief, which I do .. and no, because how could a perfect being not have perfect self-awareness .. but .. … then there’s me (how else can we measure or understand God except through standing back and viewing ourselves – called ‘God’s creation, or having ‘God within’?) .. who, over the years, has ‘known’ so much about stuff I’ve never read or heard of, until someone asks the right question .. and out pops the information. I call my knowledege ‘innate’, its internal, but I generally do not have an awareness of it until its needed. (And, while that sounds like bragging, believe me its not, when it all first started it scared the heck out of me, but I’m kind of used to it now?) LOL

    Quoting your quote of my quote here :-) “Since our bodies are physical, heaven and hell had to be too .. otherwise it makes no sense.”

    The important words are ‘had to be’ .. I was talking about Christian belief in general. The whole of Revelation is supposed to ‘really’ happen. People are supposed to be literally resurrected in their bodies, some ascend and some descend. Literal punishments. Literal hell, literal heaven .. its really a place, according to them. It’s not happening in our dream state .. that’s a whole different ‘reality’, or form of it, for those who can touch the ‘lucid’ state .. or is it?

    Here’s a thought – perhaps lucid dreaming is really being conscious on the spiritual plane while still attached to your body? That would explain your city, your capacity to die .. which is a human illusion, except that our bodies are only machines and machines can break. That would also explain that when I spend the night fighting something (as Tom says I did last night) I can come back into my body and manifest bruises? Or crash land and feel like I fracture into pieces? (Thankfully not last night)

    Actually, last night I dreamed that, after the solicitor sent me a nasty letter, the house sale settled on Saturday .. given that solicitors don’t seem to work on saturdays .. I’m hoping for friday, or even monday .. but Saturday would be good too. And I don’t dream much .. so that’s either a reaction of my mind to my wishful thinking (but then, why saturday?) or its going to happen? Let’s hope so.

    Where does ‘reality’ stop and the dream state begin .. for some people, like schizophrenics etc .. they have no way of telling. Do they volunteer for separation, but don’t get to be separate enough? Do people like me, who spend more time ‘working’ than resting in my sleep, separate too much, because we don’t remember things?

    My mind is boggling. LOL

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  13. IMO hell existence is a reality and there will be a place for criminals, weather demons or humans. I can say hell is the god’s anger place and there is no mercy or pity at all

  14. Hey! Manss – great to see you’ve found this site.

    I kinda invisage hell as Gods ‘anger place’ too – the dark side of God, as it were. Or, the dark side of ourselves. Whichever ..

    AJ
    x

  15. Hello AJ
    I delivered an email from this website manager. He announced me the paranormaltales is changed to this website name and address. Then he invited me if I am interested to follow paranormal subjects refer to this web . I am glad see you again too.
    you said :” ….the dark side of God, as it were. Or, the dark side of ourselves. Whichever “. Respectfully , god has too kind attribute. Mercy attributes and magnificence attributes. His mercifully attributes is his beauties and friendly states and his anger is the sign of his magnificence face, against injustice and disobedient demons and humans, therefore god hasn’t any dark said because he is light wholly even by his anger.The disobedient demons and humans do make the hell fire for themselves by their wrong choosing and actions so god is faultless.God dose invites them to heaven by his mercy no to hell.If human and demons believe god is all- knowledge so they have to accept and obey his orders and statements and if no they will go wrong and the wrong ways ended to hell certainly.When criminals are going toward hell god says : we didn’t unjust to them but they themselves did so.

  16. Hi Manns

    I do love decifering you’re posts (meant in a respectful way!)

    This is how I understand it …

    It is all about God’s unconditional love (light) versus God’s wrath (dark).

    As God created all the angels – including those who disobeyed him and subsequently ‘fell’ – then the fallen are still a part of God, even if they are currently disconnected from God (the love part of God, at any rate).

    Any of the fallen who chose to be redeemed, would be re-united with God again and thus, represent God’s Love once more (as opposed to God’s wrath). The same goes for humans. No human is without ‘sin’ so, it is us who have to judge ourselves.

    Is that what you meant by “God dose invites them to heaven by his mercy no to hell”?

  17. PS Sorry for spelling your name wrong, Manss

    x

  18. At first, hereafter I change my name for simpler spelling, in fact “Mans ” is a few of my real name words but I had added an additional
    “s” in end of it without any reason so now I do delete that additional word.
    Second, I am working by a computer which there is not installed any dictionary on it and it is hard for me read or write English without dictionary helping but I try don’t go wrong very much …LOL

    Well, you and I both believe in god but there is some different between our OP about god and heavenly events in history. IMO god hasn’t any part. he is not explainable as the visible or touchable stuffs in the universe. Nobody know what is his essence or quality except himself.He has created all things but nothing is like him and he is not alike anything.He has covered his essence mysteries from all beings even messengers, prophets and angels. this greatest mystery is upon angels,humans and demons ability and capacity. He is along all things but not to be that thing and is except things not to be apart of those and this what, understanding it is not possible.
    Anyhow, god is not like substances or materials to have some attribute or boundary like those therefor god hasn’t any part to demons are part of him. In fact nothing is part of creator whilst all things are creature and are except him

  19. Im not really familiar with the Bible, just some of the basics. But even with my limited knowledge, I dont believe there is the Hell of the ancients. I dont think a loving God would send his children to such a place. I know it says in several places in the Bible the unworthy ones would just be destroyed. Like I say, I dont know a lot about it, this is just my opinion.

  20. Hello all :)

    My couple of cents on the topic :) …. God created the angles, the most wonderful of them all was Lucifer, but, Lucifer tried to set himself up high like God and the Bible cast him out and 1/3 of the angels who are now demons.. then God created man and so on and so on…now I do believe in God, and I do believe in Hell, but the only reason hell was created was for demons and Lucifer (devil).. with our free will we can choose to do good or evil… people like Albert Fish, Ted Bundy, John Gacy and Jack the Ripper all have a place in hell IMO… I just don’t believe you can go and comment such horror and get away with it.. yes, they are dead, and the spirit like Siddles dreams, can feel pain, can experience the pain in dreams.. I have dreams like that also.. so I think these evil people can feel the wrath and pain they have chosen to accept when doing these evil deeds… just MHO.. the after life to me is so amazing, to really understand what is really out there.. so glad my natural eye can not see it all.. what a very over whelming sight it would be to behold!
    Thats all for now :) thanks for letting me babble :)

    Lisa

  21. Hell exists as much as heaven or earth. Think of it this way. When God made men, He made them with a free will; we can choose to do right or wrong, we are not without choice in this matter. We all do bad thigs, think bad things, say bad things, etc. But we have a huge capacity to do good things also, as a lifestyle. The question is not “Did my good deeds outweigh my bad deeds?” The question God looks at is, “What did you do with the light I gave you?” Hell is an eternal, physical seperation from anything REMOTELY good, and there will be degrees of suffering. The Hitlers will suffer far worse horrors than the regular “good” guy who just wanted to do it his way.

    Imagine, an eternity WITHOUT A SINGLE OUNCE OF KINDNESS OF ANY KIND, ANYWHERE – a complete separation from God’s love and kindness for all time. That would be hell.

    The way I understand it.

  22. The idea of “degrees of suffering” came from a fictional book Dante’s Inferno. In fact… “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” James 2: 10

  23. Dante’s Inferno may make reference to degrees of suffering but the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Bible speak many times or allude many times to this idea, just as it speaks to the idea of there being degrees of rewards in heaven. This is not a new idea to the church, but the church has lost this perspective and some are returning to it.

  24. Right, I see what you’re saying.

  25. “If the church created hell, Dante and Milton furnished, decorated, and populated it. The church was delighted with the horrific images that would frighten the flock into submission and encourage conversion through fear, so it adopted them in toto. The fact that the images weren’t biblical was a meaningless detail.”

    I apologize if this opinion might offend anyone, but I do not think hell exists at all. Go on youtube, and search for “Priest says Hell is an invention of the church to control people with fear.”

    To summarize, for those not going to go to the link, the priest explains how religion is in the “guilt-producing control business”. The man believes that life after death has nothing to do with being rewarded or punished. However, if you have a place where people are rewarded for following dogma, and punished for straying from the path, then you have “control over the population.”

    According to him, the religious structure is built around keeping people from “growing up”. The concept of being “born-again”, free of sin, and with a fresh start, keeps in mind the innocence and pure nature of a child. We are all “God’s children”. Spong says that the church “doesn’t want us to grow-up”. This is because, when people grow-up, they are less vulnerable to being controlled. This can be seen in the garden of eden, when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. God’s orders were made, so as to keep them infantile and pure, without them being responsible for their own actions. In their eating the apple, Adam and Eve “grew up”.

    Ever since that point, the church seems to want people to remain “children” so as to be easily influenced by dogma, and their writings. However, since the fall, humans can no longer do that. We have lost the right to have that life. Which is why hell was created, to keep people from doing wrong.

    Spong says, VERY bluntly, that what people need to do is grow up and take responsibility for themselves and their actions. Regardless of heaven or hell, you have free will. With that free will, you need to be intelligent enough to know right from wrong, and avoid doing it anyways. THe person who is MOST on the path is the person that does not need to have their hand held, when walking down it.

    That is my opinion, and also that of Priest John Shelby Spong, on hell and the system of reward and punishment.

  26. A.P.
    Agreed. In fact, it’s always been interesting to me, how many authors have tried to convey this concept to readers throughout time. Yet people continue in their sceptical viewpoints:
    “Naw…why would someone do that to a group of people? Nobody really wants control over another….Why would someone deliberately use fear to make gains? That’s never ever ever ever happened….not even once, in human history!” (my sarcasm too thick there? haha!)

    Isaac Asimov’s “Foundation” comes to mind. In the books, religion was used as a system of fear to control the masses. The series also shows how people propagated that fear across the cosmos. The first generation knew it was for control, but disuaded each other from thinking so…..by the third/fourth generation, the propaganda had become truth. It was the only reality everyone accepted.

    Kind of a foolproof plan, provided you can get through the “loyalty or we secretly kill/inprison you/call you a heretic”, infancy period. Then it becomes a ripple effect….where everyone starts to police themsleves.

    Case in point: I’ve actually been “rebuked in the name of Jesus” while discussing the existance of hell with a fundamentalist (hey, he brought it up–not my fault!).
    An idea can be quite dangerous…until it comes in contact with “Mob mentality”….then it just gets folks killed. :)

    (humbly…my opinion and all that…)
    -Siddle

  27. Religion is an interesting thing. It helps us to find reasons for big questions that are difficult to comprehen, questions we do not like the answers to and a means to justify our actions – both good and bad.

    Hell is not an imaginary idea, nor is heaven. We see opposites in this life all over the place. The ancients also understood, as we do, that all things have two sides – the yin and yang of a thing.

    Its fine to believe whatever you wish – as mentioned in other responses on which we agree; i.e. that we have free will. But choice has consequences both ways.

    A priest may not believe in something but does that mean it is not so? Who died and made him God? Do you believe in God? Then the next question is “What do you believe about your God?” I don’t care if someone is Muslim, Pagan, Christian, Jewish, Wiccan… this is their choosing, but please, be consistant with your choice!

    As a Christian, I see no contradiction with my God and His heaven & hell. If we have chosen to have nothing to do with a personal, interactive Creator in this life, why would He force you to have a relationship with Him in the next life by putting you into heaven. That would be hell for those who wish to remain outside of this relationship.

    As a Christian, by the very name and association, I submit to Jesus’ words and teachings. It is not that I do not question and struggle with some of those teachings, but I submit to them in the end. He taught often about hell, about an eternal, physical separation from anything that has even an hint of goodness in it. This is hell. I don’t care if my pastor, priest or the Pope himself declares a thing to be “this” or “that”, I ask, “Okay, but what does God have to say about it as already revealed in His love letter to me?” This is my final authority.

    It is like the line in the song – “I know there ain’t no heave BUT I PRAY THERE AIN’T NO HELL”. What’s it going to be. You can pick and choose from every religious thought out there, but know that they can’t all be right. They can all be wrong, they can all hold some truth for God has revealed himself to all men in all generations – but they can’t all be right.

    A spiritual journey is a good thing since we all have one. But what is your goal in your journey? Do you have a point? What is it you seek?

    I know, without hesitation and not blindly, that there is a heaven for which I am bound – an eternal, physical existence wherein I will never stop learning about my God and will have continued purpose and eternal Joy in my heart without worry of pain, sorrow, seperation from anyone. But I know also, and weep in my spirit, for those who have shut Jesus out of existence because God will ultimately (in the end) give them their desire – an eternity without his hand on anything! How bleak.

    This is my perspective.

    Blessings

  28. Hi guys,

    You all know I love this stuff, but right now I don’t have a lot of time on my hands .. about to leave to renovate my new house (a bit) and then move into it this week.

    On the concept that Jesus talked about hell, a hell of damnation and eternal fire at the time of the second coming – we have to place his 12 comments on Gehenna into their context within his society. He was not speaking of an unknown future, he was talking to people under Roman domination, who were busy destroying themselves .. they didn’t need any help from the Romans. It is the later ‘church’ fathers who took the concepts and turned them into a time of ‘eternal’ punishment ..

    Of course its all open to interpretation .. but here’s two webpages that explain things in two different ways.

    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

    http://www.godsplanforall.com/jesusdidnotteachhell

    The problem with living in a state of fear of the future (and the smiting by God), is that it clouds your judgment on a day to day basis. Jesus taught us to love one another, turn the other cheek, and be responsible for each other, as well as ourselves. What’s the first thing we do when we are frightened .. very few people think of others before themselves .. mostly they just try and keep themselves alive. The other thing with constant fear is that it will eventually turn into a dull ache, that destroys the personality and leaves a person amendable to being manipulated by others .. very helpful when you want to ‘control’ a person, or a society.

    I think the OT people were wise to fear Jehovah, it was definitely a fickle God, but Jesus said ‘I come to teach you a new way’ .. but it wasn’t nearly as much fun as expecting a God of retribution to smite those people who were not good to you, nor could the God that said ‘love one another as I love you’ be expected to cast the person you fear into hell, just because you asked for it. And people do pray for the downfall of others .. for good reasons or greed. And yet, curiously enough, there was no ‘hell’ in the OT either? No, we had to have Revelation written to give us a real ‘focus’, something to be terrified of ..

    But please .. tell me who on this planet is perfect enough to actually go to heaven? We have 10 commandments .. and I can almost guarantee that each of us has broken at least one of them, repeatedly. How about ‘honour thy mother and father’? Do not covet they neighbours (anything) ? Do not take the Lord’s name in vain? ‘One’ sin sends us to hell, but worse .. not ‘knowing’ Jesus also does this – so all my Muslim, or athiest, or Buddhist friends are condemned already?

    That raises questions .. why did the Christian God, who created all things, create other belief systems for people to follow, if ‘his’ is the only right one? Was he (it) setting humanity up to fail? Nice one! I can see it in the Jehovah version (OT), but what about Jesus’ EL (NT)? Did God set us up as puppets to be subdued to his will, otherwise we would be punished forever? Where then is the ‘free’ in will? And if we are all condemned to hell, because none of us is perfect, and one mistake at the right time (like 5 minutes before you die unexpectedly) will automatically mean eternal suffering .. what’s the point of even trying to be the type of person Jesus wanted us to be? Oh yes, I forget deathbed confessions .. but how many people actually get them, who just got killed in a car accident. And then you can buy your way out of purgatory .. with the right number of ‘indulgences’ .. which these days seems to be ‘donations to suitable charities’, mostly run by the churches?

    What sort of God is that?

    Hell exists because demons (also a God creation) have to have a home to live in, just like you and me .. but God doesn’t send us there. We might try and send ourselves, but the Love of God binds us to Him, we are eternally ‘one’ with God .. that is what Jesus gave us by dying, and he was supposed to have saved ‘all’ of humanity, not just the chosen (very) few who followed him at the Crucifixion. Want to doubt me .. go and read Anthanaseus .. an old church father .. he said Jesus arms were flung wide (nailed to the cross) so that he could reach to all people .. and he did. It is only us that continue to try to live in separation from each other .. and God.

    Packing my soapbox away now .. LOL

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  29. Lothar, your first paragraph shows the limitations of religious indoctrination. “A means to justify our actions”. We should not be trying to justify our actions, as much as we should be trying to take responsibility for them. This shows growth in a person’s moral character. You even said “choice has consequences both ways.” These must both be considered, before making a decision, not after-the-fact.

    Nobody died and made this priest God, but nobody died and made the writers of the Bible God either. I think the video explains it best. Honour your religion, and stand by beliefs, for the larger purpose of its existing. You are trying to build a connection with God. Through this connection, you are not trying to know God. You will NEVER know God. To say that you can forever “learn” about God, in heaven, is to say that you can begin to fathom infinity. This is impossible. You are trying to better know yourself, through God. Once you realize this, I am sure you will find that your relationship with God will grow even deeper. All these religions are are to point you in the direction of a better relationship.

    Unfortunately, my only major point of contention with your comment is the “I know, without hesitation and not blindly, that there is…” Honestly, I am not interested in the obvious answer to the question “How?”. This is because, I believe that any answer you can supply will be insufficient. The question I will pose you is “Why would you sully your faith, and take away its potency?”

    Faith is, by nature and description, blind. The only part of faith, that has reason, is in its practical applications in everyday life. The blind aspect comes in believing that God exists, and has only the best in mind for you. This allows you to take into more serious account all of His commandments and rules. However, the Bible was written by man, and as a result, interpreted by man. This is where reason comes in. You cannot truly walk the path that God would like you to walk, if you do not interpret His “word” for yourself.

    Now, the potency in faith is to admit not actually knowing anything, in fact. Regardless, you stand by its existence. Faith is reserved for concepts of “being”. You don’t have faith in how a person would/should act/behave. That is trust. Trust and faith are two separate concepts. Trust is the concept of belief in something, given a supply of *evidence* that will lead you to what can be considered the “best” approximation of what is/will come to pass. Faith does not require this evidence. Most importantly, it NEVER required this evidence. When you say that you “know” that heaven and hell exist, you take these places from the jurisdiction of faith, and place them into the realm of knowledge. Free will becomes limited, with the more we “know”. Essentially, I am saying that a person who “knows” that God exists is not following this path out of faith and unfettered free will. They are actually doing so because it is the obvious thing to do, with the knowledge on hand.

    Lastly, the invention of heaven and hell well pre-dates any of the modern Christian religions, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, or otherwise. It was created back in a time where people needed to be taken by the hand and led through a proper way of life. Times and methods change. What may have been a brilliant tactic, then, is now just ritualistic and obsolete. I.E.: If the purpose of religion is to build a greater connection with God, God must be readily available to all people of all nations, ethnicities, creeds, and religions. There must be another way to connect with God, than just the single man Jesus. Here, I would agree with Ama, in the grave implications of what would happen to those that have different beliefs and religions. I know MANY people who live a Buddhist lifestyle, with Buddhist beliefs. These people, should you take a checklist to their accomplishments, would make way better Christians than most Christians. The only thing that matters is their refusal of Jesus Christ. This is just wrong. To quote the video: “God is not a Christian.” You shouldn’t have to believe in Jesus, in order to reap the benefits of the after-life, for living well and proper. (should there be a heaven or hell in the afterlife)

  30. Hi all,

    A.P your last paragraph was well said!

    Oh gosh – religious brain washing at its best.
    Firstly – the commandments also appear in the egyptian book of the dead.
    Secondly – CT – thank you for your comment – its truth that many refuse to acccept.
    The Bible is based on control and corruption – Constantine was a roman emperor, do you think his intentions were good when he chose which books to put in the Bible? This is only on a physical stand-point.
    The Bible IS a great spiritual teacher! But if you’re going to look at it physically it can be the greatest load of hogwash that ever existed.
    Let me elaborate.
    Like I said in my question, the bible goes in circles, do you really think we should be bothering ourselves with the minor details of the bible? The question we should really be asking is – what is the bigger picture? What is the moral of the story?
    Here’s an interesting verse in Romans “all who have died, have been acquitted of sin”
    Does the bible really go into detail about hell?
    The bible does not teach that we go to heaven!
    Our reward would be eternal life?
    We are ALL written in the “book of LIFE” because we are alive!
    So in other words, we will all have eternal life.
    Will we all just show up in “paradise?” No, we are born are we not? We are born and we die to reflect and heal, we are born, we die to reflect and heal and so goes the story.
    Adam and Eve were created in paradise.
    Isn’t it safe to say that God is a mirror?
    Now, as far as “judgment” goes – do you really think we need judgment when you know the outcome? We will judge ourselves – do you regret anything you’ve done in your life?
    God does not do anything – it doesn’t influence anything, it has no will or plan for your life. It is simply this – “I am that I am.” Everything you do in your life is purely your own.
    I truly love God – I don’t see it as a man with a beard, but the reason for my existence, and that is how you learn about it and have a connection to it. Speaking from experience, the christian path only took me on a confused roller coaster ride that gave me nothing but a void in my heart.
    There is an interesting verse in ECC saying: wise men and fools have the same outcome.
    Does the bible teach itself in circles?
    Of course it does!

    This of course is my respectful opinion, and I truly believe that if you BELIEVE in something long enough, it becomes a reality. You can tell a lie and end up believing that it actually happened.
    The mind is a powerful thing guys.
    I do not disagree with my Christian/Hindu/Buddhist friends, I keep it respectful, because it obviously makes sense to them as truth.
    My truth is purely my own.

    Kind regards

  31. Hey Lisa, I love your babbles .. some thoughts ..

    Lucifer was the name of a Bishop .. I believe, though that also could be a myth. I am trying to remember my Theology training .. which did not include the information, but I did ask the question in class, and was answered. I also asked when the ‘fruit’ Eve offered Adam became an apple, but no one could answer the question. LOL

    “Lucifer”, for want of a better name, was cast out of heaven before the bible was written. The legend actually origniated before the OT was written, so its not even Jewish. Marvellous what humans will do with myths and legends from other cultures, when inventing a belief system of their own.

    People like Ted Bundy, and our latest ‘new Templar knight’, suffer .. oh they suffer .. but by their own hand and own choices. That’s Karma. Have a think about it, based on purely scientific principles .. ‘for every action their is an equal and opposite reaction’ .. our actions create our reality, in this lifetime or the next. I would not want to be any of them next lifetime around .. it will be murder .. probably theirs.

    Love & Peace
    Ama :-)

  32. Hey Lothar,

    I agree, ‘hell’ would be a place without kindness. I once dated a man who had no idea what kindness was. Kindness is a gift that comes from Love.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  33. Hi AP,

    I have not read all of Spong, but I did read that book, and have to agree that the church wants to keep people under control, and unquestioning, or they used to. My theology course, at university, was wonderful. We were told to question everything! .. but then we had to find the answers in the writings of ‘old fathers’ and not so much in the modern streams of thought? Oh well.

    Yes, frightened, mentally and emotionally immature people, are easier to control .. until the church loses control of its own priests and ministers .. then what do we do? We seek God our own way, which has to be better, in my opinion. Trouble is, once you open the lid, how do we fit our old beliefs back in ‘Pandora’s box’ when even hope is missing now? We still have so much to learn.

    Love & Peace
    Ama Nazra

  34. Hey Siddle,

    I’ll take your Rebuke and match it with my Exorcism .. I was exorcised because I believe in reincarnation. LOL That Bishop “sunk his own boat” because, having done it, he could not refuse to confirm me as Anglican (beliefs still intact), which I chose to become when I was 29. That was a fun couple of days. :-)

    I had forgotten Foundation was about that … but then, I read it as a kid?

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  35. Hi AP,

    Great comment and explanations, thank you. Some thoughts ..

    If we want to know God we should look at ourselves, both the good and the bad, because we are all part of God, and have ‘godly’ attributes, when we stop pretending to be children.

    Am I writing in surmising that you don’t believe in God, or is it only that you don’t believe ‘he’ (she/it) has only ‘the best for us in mind’? I agree blind faith is something we need to grow out of, because religions, which direct ‘faith’ are created by humans, sometimes for the right reasons, and sometimes for the wrong ones. It seems the ‘bigger’ the religion becomes the louder the implosion at the end .. are well, let’s go back to keeping it simple.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  36. Hi Lothar .. I ‘know’ there is a heaven too, because I’ve been there many times, and walked some ghosts into to it in this lifetime, when they were too frightened to go by themselves.

    In the meantime, why do you limit God and God’s omnipotence? Why can’t ‘all’ religions be right, if they lead to love, faith, and trust. Truth is flexible. Sadly, it becomes whatever is appropriate at the time, and for the level of learning (and emotional maturity) of the speaker and listeners. We see that in our society all the time.

    Here’s a simple belief from Christianity. God created everything .. apply that to different belief systems .. and God created all of them too. Do you really think God is going to punish a good person in a non-christian religion, who might never have even heard of Jesus Christ .. yes, I know there’s only a small chance of that these days, but there are still quite a few primitive societies that missionaries are seeking with zeal .. Is everyone that has died in those societies (before the missionaries arrived (some with a ‘convert or kill’ attitude)) now in ‘hell’ because the Christians didn’t get to them in time to save them? And what is God going to do to those missionaries, because they have failed, since Jesus’ death 2000 years ago .. to save ALL those people?

    Gotta be logical about this. God is not a monster, and Christianity is just one of many religions that show us the heart of God.

    Love & Peace
    Ama Nazra

  37. That should read .. “am I right …” and “ah well…” LOL

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  38. HI Sun!que, I am enjoying your opinions, as usual I have comments of my own ..

    Constantine didn’t write the bible, Iraneous and his cronies invented it from the many writings, from many belief systems, all with Jesus as the leader in some form or other. Constantine is said to not have converted to Christianity until his deathbed, but his mother was Christian and he stopped their persecution.

    Your quote is Romans 6:7 and taken out of context might mean everyone who dies is free from sin, but Paul is talking about martyrs “for if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with im in a resurrection like his” (6:5).

    The bible isn’t a spiritual teacher. It is a static (unchaning) finite (limited) creation of human beings who love the God others chose for them, often without questioning the messages themselves. There are so many contradictions in the Christian bible, but I still love it, because it shows us different groups of people’s belief systems, that were all tangled together, so that we can glimpse a touch of the past. I agree it could also be seen as a great load of hogwash. LOL

    Wishing you a lovely day,
    Love & Peace
    Ama (studying Theologian).

  39. Hello Ama!! :D
    Just a side thought here to go along with the Biblical theme! I am sure it’s possible that you know this, but others might not; the catholic church, in medieval times, wouldn’t even let the common people read the Bible, and many times, the bible and gospels were said in Latin during masses, even if the people didn’t speak the language! It wasn’t until later that the common man was allowed to read the bible and until fairly recently that the bible and gospels were read in the language of the people!! Talk about control!!

  40. Hi Luna,

    You are right, people were not allowed to read, nor were they, for the most part, interested in reading. It wasn’t a society where leisure pursuits were freely available. You have to have free time for that – and eating was far more important – and they had to grow their own food etc. It was only rich folk, or church folk, who were taught to read, and usually in Latin, which was not the common language ‘of the people’.

    Yes, it was about control, but it was also simply the way society was then. As people evolved they became more interested in ‘higher’ learning, and so started to question the world they lived in.

    Control only happens ‘to’ us when we let it.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  41. Ama (and LunaTerra),

    [quote]”Control only happens ‘to’ us when we let it.”

    Amen! I just read a blog post from a family member. It quotes a few passages from “The Message” (MSG Bible).

    …I’m sorry, CT….total side-bar here.

    Have you heard of this? I just read a few passages online, and I’m agast. There are a lot of changes with the “modern language”.
    I don’t know what to think….

    I may have to make this a topic.
    Think it’s worthy of one?
    Thoughts?

    -Siddle

  42. Yes!! Absolutely!!

    AJ
    x

  43. Hey Siddle,

    No I haven’t read it, but if its anything like “Good news for modern man”, which was a really weird translation of the bible when I was a teen, I’m not surprised.

    I have the ‘expanded’ version of the bible .. probably still in a box somewhere? .. its fun. It has all the possible meanings of each big word translated from the Hebrew and Greek in brackets, so you can choose your own. Reminds me of some English classes when I was a kid.

    New question .. good with me. I am back now, and finally back on my own computer (yay!).

    Love & Peace
    Ama (still renovating .. and unpacking).

  44. Hi Ama and Siddle

    [/quote]Do people like me, who spend more time ‘working’ than resting in my sleep, separate too much, because we don’t remember things?[/unquote]

    Interesting! I dream most nights. Vivid dreams. Indeed, last night the dream started with the MOD testing unmanned ‘UFOs’ over our garden (looked like arrow heads and were approx 4-5 meters across; wing-tip to wing tip). The dream then moved on to a film company on location at the back of our house in which they were filming a live dragon taking off and flying over our garden. I have fun dreams! LOL!

    Further to the ‘bruises’ part of your post, the last two days I’ve had a really sore right forearm (I’m left handed.) I’ve done nothing in my waking hours to warrant such damage. Indeed, when I went to bed it was fine, but remember dreaming of sword fighting the night the pain came. Strange how its my right hand though … as I said, I’m left handed!! I’m assuming I lay on it funny.

    Anyhow … my thoughts on ‘working’ instead of ‘resting’ during sleep actually can help to connect, rather than disconnect, in my view. Our brains are little computers full of memory, most of which is stored away. I think dreaming gives us access to some of those stored ‘files’. The trick is deciphering the code in which those memories bubble to the surface! I don’t think its because we’ve seperated too much. I think the conscious mind can only cope with so much at any one time. Too much conscious memory at one time could lead to schizophrenia??

    AJ
    x

  45. Hey AJ, (and Siddle)

    Tom has the most vivid dreams, which I find fascinating. With me dreaming is unusual .. or perhaps I should say ‘remembering any dreams’ is the usual part. The ones I do remember usually have some sort of message in them, but there was a year after my operation that I dreamed vividly all the time (remembered snippets of them), and that was totally exhausting. It seems I ride a bike a lot .. I don’t remember it myself, but Tom tells me in the morning. I also once told Tom (who spoke to me because he thought I was awake) to leave me alone because I was dead? LOL

    Left and right hand – I am mostly right-handed this lifetime, which is interesting, because in my dreamstate I am a left-handed swordswoman. I am ambidextrous when I paint the walls though, which is good, because there are a lot of walls in this house. LOL

    Your comment about schizophrenia is interesting. I wonder it is partly caused by the subconscious mind being too close to the conscious mind .. since the sub is full of everything we have ever done, seen, or heard .. it might lead to tons of confusion? Since medication dopes people and slows them down .. hmm… perhaps it cuts off the source of the ‘noise’, when it works?

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  46. Sounds like a GREAT TOPIC to me!!!!! :D Go for it, Siddle!!!!

  47. I agree. Write up a question and post it here. I will take it out of the comments and post it as a question for ya

  48. Thanks CT (and Luna, and Ama)!!
    Question starts here:

    The Message — Bible translations, literal slang and YOU!

  49. Thansk Siddle, your question has been posted and there is the link.

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