Is Suicide A Form Of Murder?

Was wondering… I was taught that suicide is a form of murder to ones self… I don’t really know but this is my question…

If one was to commit this act… and I will be honest and tell you why I am asking… the young men who has gunned down innocent lives and then take there own… young children bullied and see the only way out is take their own lives… is this murder? Is this against Gods plan?

Asked by Lisa

27 Comments
  1. Hi Lisa,

    You ask some really interesting question. We are failing our children when they make choices that lead to their own suicide, or to them having the opportunity to pick up a gun and kill others, before taking their own lives. Sometimes it is impossible to know what is going on in the mind of someone you love, when they are very good at hiding what they are feeling, or planning, and sometimes we simply choose not to see. How can we change ourselves so that we can become more conscious of other people’s needs, while we also take care of our own? When did we all become so incredibly self-focused?

    Suicide – I had a quick hunt through bible passages, and then went into yahoo to look for ‘answers’ to that sort of question.

    The best answer of all was .. When we accept Jesus in our hearts we are freed from sin. It is a one-time-only blessing that lasts forever and is for everyone. It does not say anywhere that is blessing is not applied to those who kill themselves or others. Why wouldn’t it be applied in the case of those people who are so much in despair that they only solution they can find is to send themselves back to God? God is supposed to be all loving, all compassionate. Surely God knows our hearts (as we are told) and can see when we think we are helpless? In making a choice to ‘murder’ ourselves, we are not harming anyone else, although it does break the 6th commandment.

    Recently I did a spirit rescue and sent a young suicide into healing, and she’s just fine now. She’s already been back to visit her family, to say exactly that. If she was destroyed by God for ‘defiling his temple – her body’ (1 Cor 3:16) she would not have made the hearts of her family glad again.

    There’s really a problem in the bible, because murder is not condoned, or so it seems (6th commandment), unless its ritual murder (Jephithah killed his daughter to honour a promise to God (Judges 11:39), or Saul falling on his sword and his young sword bearer also doing so because he did (1 Sam 31:4-5)). What happens to the boys who pick up their weapons and kill others, for reasons we may never understand? In my experience as a ‘rescuer’ of lost souls, they are treated in exactly the same way, when they kill themselves, as any other suicide – only their karma is much greater – because we are all asked to repay anyone we have hurt during our lives, down to the smallest degree, and murder is a huge hurt, not just for the victim but for every person connected to that family, or event, by emotional reactions.

    I wonder if God shakes his head in despair when he looks at us all?

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  2. Hi Lisa

    The definition of murder is:

    noun
    Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder) and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder)

    So, technically, a person can not murder themselves in Law.

    But the moral issue is more complicated because morality can be ‘judged’ outside of the Law. For example, can a soldier be accused of being a murderer because he/she kills the enemy during the line of combat?

    Ama gave some great Bible examples of as well as explaining God’s love and how, even a person who takes their own life, are still loved by God and treated the same.

    Personally, I do not see suicide as a form of murder but I do see it as someones last ditch attempt at either,

    finding peace with themselves, or
    punishing themselves

    depending on the situation. In all cases, suicide is an extremely desperate and sad act. In the case of the gunman who shot all those children, his mother and then himself, I would say his act upon himself was a cowardly one because he did not want to have to endure punishment for his henious crimes. He did not want to give those families of the victims ‘enjoyment’ seeing him being brought to justice and punished. Not that the families would enjoy his retribution but, in his sick little sadistic mind, they would. He did not want to give them the satisfaction.

    In the case of someone who simply does not feel life is worth living and so decide, for whatever reason, to do the ultimate escape from reality and commit suicide, this is a desperate cry for help. In most cases, those attempting to kill themselves fail first go. Thankfully, most of those then reassess their lives and realise that actually, life is for the living. They re-evaluate their lives, make major changes and go on to live full and happy lives for many years to come. I personally know a few people who fit this scenario. Is this God’s intervention, letting them ‘see’ that all is not lost?? I would like to think so.

    So, to go back to your original question (sorry, I woffled) no, I don’t think suicide is a form of murder. Nor do I think it is against God’s plan. In God’s eyes, it is our spirit that is the important part of us, not our earthly bodies.

    AJ
    x

  3. You know, AJ, I have to wonder if God actually has a plan for humanity as a whole, or each of us individually, and what it might have been .. apart from say, ‘create humanity, give them free will, watch what they do with it’? I wonder when the experiment is marked a ‘pass’ or ‘fail’? Do we get graded the way we did as kids? A+ B C- D .. F?

    The problem, for me, in saying that God has a plan, is that its used as an excuse to explain events we refuse to accept responsibility for. Were those kids who were killed in America, and there’s been two or more shootings on the Oz news since, killed on God’s command to the perpetrator? What a great excuse for the gunmen, if they ever came to trial .. God told me to do it! We usually lock people up as insane when they try and use that ‘plea’, rather than thinking that God’s plan included destroying innocent lives before they had a chance to grow past childhood (in the case of the kids). (Hmm.. back to Jephithah’s daughter .. and what’s that about Isaac nearly being sacrificed? Would Abraham have done that if an angel had not stopped his hand?)

    Perhaps a good topic for discussion could be ‘does God’s plan include murder’ .. we can find lots of examples of that in the bible, and since all our laws have their foundations in those teachings, perhaps we are wrong to say that murder is wrong? This is, btw, not my actual opinion, but the way my mind rubbles around the subject of ‘God told me to do it’ being used as an excuse for anything. If God told anyone to do anything, without allowing them to refuse, it would take away their free will, and break the newest convenant between God and humanity (he won’t destroy us if we obey his laws? Or is that the old one?) I think that’s a fail already, we break the rules all the time? So, does having a rule ‘thou shall not kill’ turn God into a hypocrit? It’s ok when he orders it, or we do it in ‘his’ name – but its not ok when we do it for ourselves? I don’t even want to think about it, but we should. If we are going to change ourselves, and therefore society, let’s begin with the basics. How can you choose to do murder when you live by ‘love one another as I have loved you’ .. oh yeah .. the god of murder loves us? Then when we murder are we not simply following God’s example?

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  4. Hi Ama

    I think we can safely say that, when it comes to ‘being told’ to take the life of another, it is Samael – not God – who gives ‘encouragement’.

    You have brought up a great discussion point with this response and one which, in my view, should be discussed in its own right.

    And yes, I do believe Abraham would have sacrificed his son if it had not been for divine intervention and a bit of rashional thinking on Ab’s part. I think that was God putting his ‘foot down’. But that is just my view.

    AJ
    x

  5. Abramham’s one and only by marriage and old age and the awesome trial of Sarah giving birth at that age..plays more into it then just his only son being sacraficed… it would be up rooting a whole nation… a tribe of Abraham to carry on… many would be affected.. so in doing this act… not only would Abramhams only begotten be given up, but a whole tribe… my view point is that… in the old Testament… the blood of the final sacrafice had not been given.. namely Jesus… so we look back at the old Testaments and see all the pagan..rituals and almost witch craft ammentities… so to take ones life or another is a backward step.. a spirit of doom to me and those that I can take with me.. I still think in todays society and the knownledge of right and wrong.. suicide for me would be murder..

  6. Hi Lisa,

    Sorry, I don’t quite follow your reasoning? I understand that if Issac had died that would have been the end of Abraham’s direct descendants, but the bible says that God demanded that Abraham sacrifice Issac. There’s no mention of the devil at that time, except between AJ and I. No one else was affected at that moment except Issac and Abraham, and, IMO, it would have been murder, sanctioned or not. Are you saying that you think of ‘spirit of doom’ was the one that asked Abraham to do this?

    Then I have more questions –

    What is an ‘ammentities’? How does the Israelites doing pagan rituals come into the situation? What do they have to do with a person choosing to commit suicide, or murder? Some of the nicest folk I know are wiccan and wouldn’t hurt a fly, literally. Or Buddhist, who believe we can be reincarnated as the fly. A person’s religious belief system doesn’t necessarily make them more inclined to create harm .. except perhaps for satanists?

    I agree that committing suicide is not a wise decision, but there’s lessons to be learned from every choice we make, so perhaps its not so much a backward step, as delaying our movement forward to true understanding of Love and God?

    Thank you for the question. It’s raising all sorts of interesting thoughts ..

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  7. Hey Lisa

    Did you know that, according to Islam, it is Abraham’s first born son, Ishmael, who was offered for sacrifice, and not Isaac??

    Curiously, because Ishmael survived the ordeal and, some time afterwards both he and his mother Hagar were cast out into the desert by Abraham because of the jealous Sarah, Ishmael then went on to be the founder of the Arab tribes through his 12 son’s; Nebaioth,
    Kedar(Muhammad came from this tribe), Adbeel, Mibsam,
    Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and
    Kedemah.

    Now that belief really does put a spin on things. If Ishmael had been sacrificed, we most likely would not have a separate Arab branch of the original Israelite/Abrahamic tree, today. Equally, if Isaac had been sacrificed, we would not have had the Isaelite/Abrahamic tree because Isaac would not have fathered Jacob, thus the 12 tribes of Israel would not have existed either.

    Maybe, whatever the truth of it, there was a ‘greater purpose’ for God’s action to save the life of Ab’s son in the first place.

    AJ
    x

  8. Hmmm.. AJ .. I wonder if this is one of the stories the Christian ‘fathers’ borrowed when they were creating their bible? I can’t imagine God demanding that one of his favourites sacrifice a child to prove his loyalty (shades of the punishment of Job). It makes more sense as an allegory, where Ishmael loses his birthright/life when he loses his position as Abraham’s heir. He can’t lose the position of ‘first born’, regardless of whether he was illegitimate or not.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  9. Hello AJ and Ms Ama,

    I didn’t mean to offend anyone by my earlier statements… was my left brain going off on a whole different subject… lol…I get a little carried away with my thoughts sometimes..

    Yes, AJ I recall the story of Abraham’s concubine laying with him to conceive a child … Sarah’s ideal.. go figure lol… Also, I was thinking.. and here I go again… sacrafice/suicide… if you let someone take your life and freely give it up.. is that a type of suicide? … Like Jesus giving up his life… or so many others.. causing not only murder, but… suicide … a double wamming on both parties…

  10. Ama, I dont reply as often as I should here but I just wanted to say real quickly that I love reading your comments. I truly believe that you are an amazing person and a help to so many.

  11. Hey Lisa,

    I am not offended, I am fascinated, and curious and like to ask lots of questions. I love learning how other people think, and what they think, and discussing the Bible .. being a theology ‘student’ (nut? :-)). There’s so much in that book to learn from, not just to nitpick over. LOL

    Is suicide suicide when someone else does it to you .. are we talking about ‘god told me to kill you’, or ‘assisted suicides’? I think people should have the right to choose what they do with their own lives, particularly if they are terminally ill and in tremendous pain. It is their karma they have to deal with, and the karma created from the pain they cause their family by their choice to commit suicide, that is more than enough to deal with. I also don’t believe God would punish someone for helping a helpless person cross over, particularly if that person asked them too, but there’s still karma involved. Every action, every choice, has to be balanced out.

    This is a very contraversial subject and can really upset people, but when it does, I have to ask why? So many people are terrified of death, and perhaps that is what frightens them most when it comes to someone choosing to die by their own hand? We also talk about a wasted life .. and while I agree in some cases it is a tragedy, particularly when its a young person, how much life is there lying in bed writhing in agony, or the half-life of those in deep comas from brain damage? I don’t think people should ask someone else to do it for them, or make the decision for them, but that happens anyway when a family, or loved one, has to choose to ‘turn off the machines’.

    As to the ‘god told me to do it’ bunch .. my usual question is ‘which God’ and then ‘prove it’. A person may choose to sacrifice themselves for others, but don’t kid yourself, you are not doing it for God. In some cases its for love and in others its simply for ego. There are people who are born ‘heroes’ that spend their entire lives trying to prove their own worth by doing something heroic for others, and then there are those who only think about it for a moment and do it anyway. They also commit suicide – where is God in that equation? Standing with his arms open ready to catch us when we fall.

    Jesus is the example. Jesus chose assisted suicide. Other people did it to him, but he never resisted at all. He knew, to some small degree (your will not mine), that what he had to go through was very important, so he gave in and let it happen. Did God punish him? Oh no, back he came to tell everyone that, not only was he fine, but so were all of us.

    And the little girl I ‘rescued’ the other day also came back to her family and said ‘I am fine’ .. just a few days after we crossed her over. I had an email from her parent yesterday. :-)

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  12. Thank you CT. I appreciate the leniency you show me. LOL

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  13. Hi Ama

    Regards the Ab / Isaac / Ishmael conundrum, here is a random thought on how it all might have come about. I don’t have an opinion either way, but bear with me whilst I examine one possible scenario which may make more sense, and it has nothing to do with God demanding sacrifice to show loyalty …

    Whilst Sarah was considered baron, at least one male child was connected to Abraham through bloodline to continue his lineage, even if it was not hers. But, when she gave birth to a son some years later, there lay a problem. Abraham (and her I suspect) had brought Ishmael up as their own, and treated him as the heir to Abraham. Now suddenly, there is a conflect of interest. It would be quite natural, I supposed, for Sarah to be jealous of, and threatened by, the prospect of an older son of Abraham still having such prominance in their lives.

    So, imagine one day when the conversation of ‘sacrifice to appease God’, came up in the tent between Ab and Sarah. Could this be the perfect ‘solution’ to the problem of Ishmael, whom she considered a threat to her own son’s station in life??? She was extremely jealous so, if she could convince Abraham that his true first born son should be the one offered for sacrifice, rather than their first born son, then —- problem solved!!! No threat as to who would be rightful heir if Ishmael is dead!

    So, off Ab went with Ishmael, not Isaac, to offer his true first born son to God. Only, the sacrific would have its foundations in malice and envy and thus born of a vindictive act. Whereas, my understanding of the sacrificial act itself, is that it is administered to show the love and loyalty of your god over all others, and not a good excuse to murder someone??

    If this is closer to the story’s origins then it makes perfect sense to me as to the reason why God would send an angel to stop Abraham fullfilling his wife’s wishes and, ultimately, making a serious mistake. After all, it was Sarah who convinced Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael into the dessert where they were expected to face certain death. The Bible doesn’t really explain the reasoning behind that act, other than it was Sarah who was the driving force. As she had failed to get Ishmael sacrificed, then what about send them to the dessert to die instead??

    The other side to this story is, of course, that because Ishmael was seperated from the Israelites, he started anew, eventually turning his lineage into a different religion. And, to quote one of a number of profound saying from the film Life Of Pi: God has many religions so He can introduce Himself to us in different ways, so that we all may understand Him. (or, something like that!!)

    So, maybe, the underlying message from the story of Abraham is to carry faith within yourself, not be carried along by another’s faith!!

    Hi Lisa

    You asked: sacrafice/suicide… if you let someone take your life and freely give it up.. is that a type of suicide?

    That is a very good question and I guess, provided the sacraficee is a willing participant, then the answer has to be, yes. Suicide bombers spring to mind – they sacrifice themselves for their cause so, technically, it’s the same thing.

    AJ
    x

  14. Hey AJ,

    There’s a bit of a precedent for getting rid of inconvenient ‘first borns’ in places like the Persian empire in that time period, and for centuries afterwards, so perhaps it was not usual that Sarah wanted Ishamel dead, or simply sent away, so that her son would inherit Abraham’s ‘kingdom’.

    It amazes me that she would allow Abraham to sleep with Hagar in the first place, since she was supposed to have such a jealous nature – though reading through Genesis right now, I can’t see signs of it? Just a woman protecting her son. And Abraham married other wives later and had more children? Was Sarah dead then or didn’t she care anymore? Truthfully, I think Hagar was probably more his idea than hers, being the leader of a partriarchal society where the men had a great desire for ‘sons and heirs’. And the emphasis on Sarah’s so-called jealousy (if someone was being rude to me I might not react kindly to it either, and Hagar was supposed to have mocked Sarah for not being able to have kids) turns ‘her’ into the villain, rather than Abraham, who should never have sent his ‘second wife’, or his ‘first born’ into the desert in the first place. And what sort of God demands that? Where is the good in having Ishmael hate his father?

    Perhaps that’s the basis for the continuous conflict between the Muslims and the Christians .. it has its foundation in an act of treachery by the ‘founder of the family’ .. what hope then for the ‘children’???

    I go back to saying that humanity still has not grown up.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  15. Hey Ya’ll,

    Enjoying the comments from both of you…

    Things back in Biblical days were so strange.. Sarah was a beautiful woman and Ab would have her to say he was her brother or else he feared he would be murdered when passing through cities.. but the little love birds got caught one day romping in the fields haha…I believe Ab’s love for Sarah was very strong, as was hers for him and she was so old and understood that it was important that he have an heir that she had Hagar to lay down with Ab… Ab was favored by God, and it says that God is a jealous God himself and I think that was a test to see just how much Ab still loved and served him.. so in asking him to give his only legit sons life… and when God saw he would do this.. gave the ram to be sacraficed in place of Isaac… as far as Hagar and her son being sent out into the wilderness.. God took care of them both and her son became a great nation… I believe her punishment for mocking Sarah was being thrown out.. but then again God showed mercy to her.. People were sneaking and power hungry back then as they are today… remember how it plays out? … Isaac with his sons.. Jacob and Esau? .. it just goes on and on .. shew… its like watching one of those soaps on TV lol…

  16. MiddleEastEnders – hahahaha! (Just thought; You probably won’t understand that, unless you live in the uk! There’s a long runing a tedious soap called EastEnders – lol!)

    AJ
    x

  17. Hi Ama

    You said: Perhaps that’s the basis for the continuous conflict between the Muslims and the Christians .. it has its foundation in an act of treachery by the ‘founder of the family’ .. what hope then for the ‘children’???

    Yep! I agree.

    AJ
    x

  18. Hi Lisa and AJ,

    Here’s more things that I think about from that story ….

    I guess it was all right for Abram to lie (do not bear false witness??? oh no, the rules came in afterwards?) by saying he was Sarai’s brother, because then then he could sell her to anyone who asked? Yes, things were definitely strange back then, although ‘arranged’ marriages still happen in modern times, in societies that are supposed to be modern??

    It always puzzles me that the ‘forgive everyone, turn the other cheek’ God of Jesus was jealous of the love of a man for a woman, when ‘he’ created both – so jealous, so unsure of his own ‘importance’ (which is generally why people get jealous) in someone else’s life, that he had to test Abraham by telling him to murder his own son? Sounds totally irrational to me.

    And then, why not test Sarah .. or was he doing that by making her barren? How cruel. What sort of childish God has to close the womb of someone who is described as a wonderful person, just so that it (he) can step in later and prove its power by opening her womb again at a time when she would be naturally ‘barren’ given her age, and as AJ said, would suffer horribly in having a child, because a woman’s body is not designed to bear young at that time of life (think muscles, joints, bone strength or brittleness just to start with)? Why did Jehovah wait so long? Why didn’t he just do it before Abraham slept with Hagar? Jehovah could have stepped in really early on and given Abraham and Sarah two sons to start the two nations it seemed he wanted to create? Why cause so much pain and harm for all of them to bring the kids into the world? Did he want the boys to hate each other?

    And then the question arises – was Sarah’s heart not broken enough with the attention Abraham would have given Ishmael at his ‘coming of age’? She was human, she would probably have wished the boy had been hers .. but if she was the lovely person they describe, she might also have been very happy for both of them.

    And then we get to Hagar. Plural marriages were an accepted part of society then, and usually the women tried to get along, even if they didn’t like each other. But, Hagar had been Sarah’s ‘servant’ (for how long?), surely both she and Abraham would have known her character by then, and I am sure Sarah would have picked very carefully, the person she thought would be right as a surrogate mother, in a sense. Some commentors say Hagar was a ‘second wife’, not a servant. I wonder which was true. My bible says servant.

    So Hagar gives Abraham a son and the peaceful structure of the household is torn apart by her behaviour. What good did it do to that little family to then give Sarah a son when Ishmael was 13? Jehovah, being omnipotent must have been able to see that his decision to give Sarah a child, because Abraham already had an heir, was going to cause a lot of turmoil in that household, so why do it? Does he like creating dissention? Goes with the ‘jealous nasty God’ bit I suppose, given we are soon in the story of Job. And not only that .. but Hagar, having caused all that trouble, is then blessed by Jehovah? My question is why? Why was she blessed after her behaviour had disrupted the peace of the household of one of Jehovah’s chosen? Why would that make Jehovah so happy with her, that he made her son the ruler of a nation – or a religion, that is now at war with Christianity .. or at least some of the people in it are.

    Is Jehovah simply the God of dissention – because he’s not Jesus’ God of Peace?

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  19. Hi Ama

    Or maybe, the whole story is a parable?

    Or maybe decisions made were born of men, not God. But, because of Abraham’s high standing, maybe (like the Egyptian kings) he was considered to be ‘close to god” or “like god” or even “God” (as some see Jesus) so, decisions made – right or wrong – were attributed to Gods will, and not the will of Abraham or Sarah or any other human? At least then, any wrong decision could be blamed on a deity and not a king!!

    If a man is barbaric, his idea of God will be ‘made’ in the man’s image. You only have to think of the suicide bombers to realise that this depiction of God still goes on today. But, God is God and God, being God, gave us all free will to chose how we would like to see Him.

    So, I do not think Abraham’s God is a different God to Jesus’. What I believe is that human understanding of God has changed, not God itself.

    AJ
    x

  20. Hi AJ,

    That’s a very good answer. God hasn’t changed, we have .. and yet, have we? We are still as barbaric, thoughtless, insensitive, judgment and frightened as the people back over 2000 years ago. And yet ‘God’ no longer smites people, demands the impossible, sends demons to torment us, and interferes in our free will .. oh, I know that some people still make God responsible for their choices (in other words blame God for all sorts of things) but there are no more burning bushes, or voices from the sky, or well placed lightening bolts .. otherwise it would be headlines on the weekend news.

    No, instead we got this man called Jesus who said his ‘father’ teaches ‘make love not war’ .. can’t really say the same about Jehovah, if we go by the written history that two religions hold so dear.

    I know we’ve had this discussion before, numerous times :-), and will probably never agree, but there’s no harm in that. There’s enough room in ‘God’ to allow for both our opinions. There are two Gods in the bible, and a very distinct dividing line. It’s called ‘love one another as I have loved you’. Jehovah demanded love, El gives it. People don’t need to be frightened of God anymore, ignoring what the churches teach .. if we did, we’d probably all be in hell right now.

    Signing off to the sound of another commandment being shattered … and wishing you a lovely day, :-)
    Love & Peace
    Ama

  21. Hi Ama

    You said “God hasn’t changed, we have .. and yet, have we?”

    This is what I think. Jesus showed us another way to understand God. Before Jesus, the barbaric lot capitalised on the “fear God” mentality to get their own way. Some still do, unfortunately. But, thank’s to Jesus, many ‘saw the light’ so to speak. That, in my view, was the whole point of Jesus’ arrival 2000 years ago … to help us understand God better and to think about God, rather than just taking other folk’s word for it.

    “but there are no more burning bushes, or voices from the sky, or well placed lightening bolts .. otherwise it would be headlines on the weekend news.”

    LOL! I’m skeptical that there ever was – except for voices, as we hear them all the time – lol! More likely these were stories told where enhanced upon to make them more wonderous and ‘godly’. As for God showing miracles to us individually, well, as far as I am concerned God did just that to me when I had trouble in my house. The only reason I now believe there is actually a God is because of that whole bizarre experience. When I asked for spiritual help, God helped me. And God does that kind of thing all the time to all kinds of people. That, to me, is the proof of God’s miracles, not a burning bush or a UFO (Ezekiel’s chariot) in the sky.

    AJ
    x

  22. Good Evening Ladies :)

    Great comments from both of you.. I enjoy it very much… If I may give my PO, :) … Here goes.. According to the writings of the Bible.. KJV … we were all made in the image of God.. free choice and all… first thing Adam and Eve ruin it for everybody… now we read on through of God even repenting for making us… so He becomes the God of Wrath that we see in the old books… doing all the acts of anger and tests and such.. something like a “How dare you take this gift of life given to you and you become and act as you are now”, like chastising a child.. and I know we would never do to our own children such things mentioned in the OT, but, in many cultures there are customs that we would call barbaric and unexcuseable treatment of another human being that is just a natural way of life to them.. all people are very strange and unique with customs we would not ever consider humane.. So then, we our given Jesus.. another part of God himself.. full of love, patience, peace and joy.. an innocent babe to grow up and know and experience what it is to be human in this world God made just for us that we ruined in the beginning.. and bring about what he intended, still with that free choice but, with the consequences and/or karma of our own making..
    “We reap what we sow” … What do think? ..

    Blessings
    Lisa

  23. Hi Lisa, I am glad you are enjoying our discussion. So am I. :-)

    I’m an advocate for karma. If we don’t keep a watch over our thoughts, feelings, attitudes, actions and reactions, we gather it around us like bees to honey – only its not that sweet when we do something wrong. If we don’t balance it out in this lifetime, we’ll be balancing it out over many more. This has been proved to me time and again by the many past life readings I have done for people over the years. Some of them have been life-changing, as people acknowledge the karmic themes of their lives and change .. usually for the better.

    The Buddha said ‘with our thoughts we create the world’, and Ghandi said ‘be the changes you want to see in the world’ .. put them together, and we have the opportunity to do great good, but also great harm. All the great teachers wanted us to learn to be responsible for what we create .. karma makes us responsible. That is what “we reap what we sow” really means to me.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

  24. Hi Lisa

    That is a great explanation of your understanding of God and the difference between the OT and NT views/interpretations of God’s nature.

    Hi Ama

    I enjoy the discussions as well. Particularly when we have different viewpoints – lol!

    AJ
    x

  25. Lisa,
    I know this is an older question, and sure you got a lot of help and advice on your question. If you’re still interested and want another answer, I’ll be happy to throw my input into the mix. Well scripture like Gen.9:5 we see that human life is precious and sacred in the eyes of God. We also learn murder is displeasing to God. (Ex. 20:13)
    Suicide is murdering oneself. Referring back to scripture Gen. 9:5 we will have an account for blood spilled. The bible is clear about human life.
    Granted not everybody is the same, some suffer from mental issue. In this case, as we render an account before the almighty, he will take into consideration the different cases that may push one to suicide.

  26. Hello Dark*Knight,

    BTW.. really like your user name… had one myself call MidKnight lol… love it!..
    I agree that life is so precious and to throw it away for whatever reason is such a waste.. but when you are at the end of your rope… and I’m speaking from the young kids today.. its like wildfire.. and wildfire consumes and has no direction.. but the direction this form of wildfire is taking.. is consuming our future.. our children..a very raw spot with me.. what is the age of accountabilty? .. Where if it is murder and breaking a rule.. is this child to be held accountable? … I would’nt think so.. but the what about the one that caused it?..How about ole Jack and his push button device for those that wanted to end it all.. He went to jail… starved himself for the cause of ending suffering and burden to families with those who were terminally ill.. does he stand in the mix as a murderer?… It’s all so confusing sometimes..

    Blessings,
    Lisa

  27. Hey Lisa,

    How young is old enough to be held accountable for our actions? I know of an 8 and 10 year old who murdered a 3 year old child. Are they accountable for their deliberate actions? They both ended up in children’s goal, perhaps the mental ward. They made a deliberate choice to kill another child – to my mind that makes them ‘old’ enough to be made accountable.

    God makes us accountable for ours, not by sending us to hell – in the sense of demons and eternal punishment. Talking of eternal punishment, some Christian churches believe that an unbaptised baby automatically goes to hell too, because the ‘don’t know Jesus’, having not received the blessing and been given to ‘Him’. Who’s judgment is that? God’s? Why would God allow a child to live just long enough to be sent to hell, when his/her only ‘crime’ was dying too soon?

    God does not condone evil behaviour, but God still considers us ‘children’ and I agree with him. We are irresponsible, unloving, evil, thoughtless, selfish, unkind, frightened beings .. and we are all capable of doing great harm. We are born into the world to learn to rise above our ‘animal’ behaviours .. the flight or fight response .. the mine! mine! mine! need of our egos to be dominant in our actions. It takes a miracle to create a child that acts only from love, and as society gets worse, and it is getting worse .. lazier, angrier, more frightening .. those children are few and far between, and often end up having the goodness beaten (or worse) out of them.

    Where is God? Did God create us to destroy ourselves? Or is he like Job’s Jehovah, watching over us while the devil tests each and every one of us, to find our weaknesses and exploit them? God must hate us for taking the perfect creations that we were and turning them into us .. and for taking his ‘son’ and destroying him too. And yet .. Jesus said ‘love one another’, ‘turn the other cheek’, ‘love your enemies’ .. which might mean that we should love ourselves, because sometimes our greatest enemy is ourselves, because of all that we fear, and everything we have been put through by others, or our own actions.

    My God is the loving one, the compassionate, forgiving one. Jesus lied when he taught that God forgives, if people go straight to hell after they die. There is a moment when the door into heaven is thrown wide for each of us to step through. It’s not the door to hell. It is the door to healing, to acceptance, and back to God. Very few people speak of NDE’s where there are two doors .. one in Light, one in darkness. And very few speak of going to hell. Most people remember the Light and Love, no matter who they are or what they have done.

    We trap ourselves outside of God’s grace by our choices, not because S/he does not welcome us Home when we die, but because we cannot accept that someone, some being, is so loving, and so compassionate, and so forgiving, that s/he will allow us to return Home, and find a way to repay the harm we have done.

    It all comes back to Jesus on the Cross. “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do”. The meaning of that has so many many different levels, we just really don’t understand the depth of it .. but Jesus did.

    Love & Peace
    Ama

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